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Need some engine advice.

 
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Old 08-15-2014, 02:05 PM
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Need some engine advice.

My race car's engine has had a cylinder down on compression since I got the car, and while it's still fast enough to win, I'm tired of it burning a quart and a half of oil every night. I use redline oil, so it's getting expensive. I figure I should just replace the engine with a jdm one and be done with it.

I'm not too sure on what engine I should get, though. From what I can tell, I have 3 or 4 choices. One: H23 blue top. Two: h22a black top. Three: H22a red top euro r or type s.

Here are my racing conditions: 5000-5500 rpm out of the corner in second gear, accelerate to 8000 rpm (My limiter was raised to 8000), maybe touch the rev limiter for a second before leaving off and braking for the corner. I do it twice a lap, for about 25 laps each night. I have a few bolt ons, such as a cold air intake, dc sport header (junk, I know), 3" exhaust, and balance shaft delete.

I like the price of the h23 blue top, and I like how it has more torque at a lower rpm, because I'm currently bogging a little bit out of the corners due to my huge tires. But I'm not too sure on how reliable it will be at high rpm's constantly. And I'm not too sure on how fast the power begins to drop after exceeding the factory redline. Not that it doesn't make any power at 8000 rpm. (my current engine still pulls hard at that rpm.)

The blacktop is just like what I have now, except it will have far fewer miles on it. So I might still have the bog out of the corners, but it will still pull hard to 8000 rpm. It's more expensive that the blue top, but I'm guessing it should last longer at high rpms due to the shorter stroke.

And finally the redtop. Expensive. And while it makes 217 hp, it does so at 400 rpm higher. (7200 instead of 6800) And it makes more torque, but it makes it at 1000 rpm more. (6500, instead of 5500) I'd like the high end gain, but will I lose my low end and bog even harder out of the corners? If I would bog it even worse, I'd stick with the blacktop.

Right now, I'm leaning towards the blacktop. But I'm new to hondas, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

Thanks

dirttrackracindude
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Old 08-15-2014, 06:18 PM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

Going with the redtop, it seems like it would just exaggerate your bogging problem coming out of the corner. I have no hands on experience with the bluetop, so just speculating here, it would probably not be as rev-happy as the blacktop or the redtop. I'd say just go with the blacktop and maybe look into getting a good header. Are you allowed to tune or do you have to use a stock ECU?
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Old 08-15-2014, 06:55 PM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

Make that H22 breath better like dbd is saying and you'll be fine. Blue top has potential for higher revs if you spend the dough on innerds. But by then you'd have been money ahead with the H22.

Is rebuild with oversized pistons an option for you during the off season?

Is your cai the real deal as in brings in air from outside the engine bay? Or one of those that sucks in hot engine bay air?

Is your 3" exhaust a true 3" front to rear? Some reduce at the bends and header to flex pipe etc
Using a cat convertor or no?
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...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
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I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

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Old 08-15-2014, 09:35 PM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

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Originally Posted by dbd6604 View Post
Going with the redtop, it seems like it would just exaggerate your bogging problem coming out of the corner. I have no hands on experience with the bluetop, so just speculating here, it would probably not be as rev-happy as the blacktop or the redtop. I'd say just go with the blacktop and maybe look into getting a good header. Are you allowed to tune or do you have to use a stock ECU?
It's been tuned, but it's just a basemap tune. I needed to raise the rev limiter, and the only way to do that was a tune. I'm considering having it dyno tuned over the winter, but I'm not sure yet. I was thinking about getting a good header, but our rules don't exactly allow headers, and I don't want to bend the rule any farther than I already am. Plus, I need ground clearance (the track gets really rough), and most of the good ones don't have that. I've already bottomed out the dc sport header, and I imagine a good one will be much worse.

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Originally Posted by bykfixer View Post
Make that H22 breath better like dbd is saying and you'll be fine. Blue top has potential for higher revs if you spend the dough on innerds. But by then you'd have been money ahead with the H22.

Is rebuild with oversized pistons an option for you during the off season?

Is your cai the real deal as in brings in air from outside the engine bay? Or one of those that sucks in hot engine bay air?

Is your 3" exhaust a true 3" front to rear? Some reduce at the bends and header to flex pipe etc
Using a cat convertor or no?
Yeah, I don't care to go in the engine. I don't have the money to do that. Plus, I'm pretty sure I can't bore the engine out too far with the frm cylinders.

The cai is sort of the real deal. It's an ebay short ram, but I don't have any headlights or anything in the front of the car, so the intake constantly gets fresh cold air.

It's a 3" exhaust, with a 3" dynomax ultra flo welded muffler. The exhaust shop didn't have a mandrel bender, so it's reduced to about 2.75" at the turndown. (It exits under the car, per the rules.) No cat, no resonator.
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Old 08-15-2014, 09:42 PM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

For about $250 plus install the kteller allumized cat back is mandrel bent throughout. True 3" front to back.
They have stainless too but my gut says that's 10-15# heavier.

We're going to install the kteller 2.5" on a project in the near future with a vibrant sleeper tip muffler.(dual tip for factory look, mega packed casing for a fairly cop hassle free sound)
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead

Last edited by bykfixer; 08-15-2014 at 09:48 PM. Reason: project
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Old 08-15-2014, 09:56 PM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

Quote:
Blue top has potential for higher revs if you spend the dough on innerds. But by then you'd have been money ahead with the H22.
Would it be better for sustained high RPM applications such as this though? The lack of oil squirters (like those found in the H22 bottom end) would kind of worry me. I'm pretty sure Blake talked about this at one point or another, but I don't remember what he said.

Quote:
It's been tuned, but it's just a basemap tune.
You probably have a good chunk of power to be gained with a good tune.
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Old 08-15-2014, 11:39 PM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

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Originally Posted by dbd6604 View Post
Would it be better for sustained high RPM applications such as this though? The lack of oil squirters (like those found in the H22 bottom end) would kind of worry me. I'm pretty sure Blake talked about this at one point or another, but I don't remember what he said.



You probably have a good chunk of power to be gained with a good tune.
It doesn't have piston oil squirters? I think I'll stick with the blacktop or redtop for that reason alone.

I'd imagine I could get some gains with a tune. It's running quite rich right now. And now that I think about it, that rich condition might be contributing to the bog out of the corner.
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Old 08-16-2014, 12:15 AM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

Yep. You definitely have gains to be made with a good tune. Probably the best bang for your buck at this point.
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Old 08-16-2014, 07:32 AM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

Wait...
They'll let you tune, but no header?
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead
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Old 08-16-2014, 07:47 AM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

Well, technically, we're not supposed to be tuning our ecu, but they never check it. They never even pop the hood. All they really check for is safety equipment. But the header would stick out, as it would be lower than the rest of the car, and then they might check it. There's not one car on the track that's legal right now. I know that for a fact.
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:58 AM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

Sounds like a fun filled Saturday night.

Watch out for Tony Stewart
Too soon?

Seriously it sounds like a boat load of fun.
Prelude representing!!!!
How many Preludes are out there? What else runs with you?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead

Last edited by bykfixer; 08-16-2014 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 08-16-2014, 11:01 AM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

No other preludes. Lots of cavaliers and sunfires (ecotec and quad 4 mostly. There are a few single cam cars that have had their engines built.), a b13 sentra ser, an old vw golf, and sometimes a few other cars.
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Old 08-16-2014, 12:18 PM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

red top ftw... bogging??? I think a tune vs base map will fix that... or help it (with either red or black top)...
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Old 08-16-2014, 02:46 PM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

Given you don't have a problem with traction, the blue top engine is perfect for your operating conditions. It's a bigger engine with h22 type rpm operation.

H22a replacement + a real tune will yield results you will actually notice at the track. I did a dual cam f22 tune a long time ago. Picked up 10whp but only up top. Carried power a tad longer. Guy said the car was night and day at the track. He said he them had a hard time with the tires rolling off the bead which he later fixed but proper tuning will be very justified with increased gaps between you and second place

Red tops would be pointless for what you are doing as they are expensive.
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Old 08-16-2014, 04:08 PM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

^^ will the H23 do well in high rev scenerios blake? As in hold together? Or is there enough @$$ behind it to make up for the difference? Dirtdude mentioned 8000 rpms.
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead
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Old 08-16-2014, 05:25 PM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bykfixer View Post
^^ will the H23 do well in high rev scenerios blake? As in hold together? Or is there enough @$$ behind it to make up for the difference? Dirtdude mentioned 8000 rpms.
it will hold together no less than the h22. 5000-8000 rpm for 20+ laps isnt easy on any engine thus the reason guys who compete a lot in these races typically use cheap, disposable engines. It appears he is using a good oil which will really help with wear.
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Old 08-17-2014, 11:31 AM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

^^ speaking of that, I suppose a good durable filter is also paramount...not your ordinary grippy tipped Fram. I remember reading here at pz that certain typical filters can collapse in on themselves in racing situations...
Got any filter tips Blake?
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead
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Old 08-17-2014, 03:44 PM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 98vtec View Post
Given you don't have a problem with traction, the blue top engine is perfect for your operating conditions. It's a bigger engine with h22 type rpm operation.

H22a replacement + a real tune will yield results you will actually notice at the track. I did a dual cam f22 tune a long time ago. Picked up 10whp but only up top. Carried power a tad longer. Guy said the car was night and day at the track. He said he them had a hard time with the tires rolling off the bead which he later fixed but proper tuning will be very justified with increased gaps between you and second place

Red tops would be pointless for what you are doing as they are expensive.
I'm a little uncomfortable about the bluetop now that I learned about the lack of piston oil squirters. I feel they really help the durability of the engine for my type of racing. Plus, there are a couple races that I want to try next year that have 150-200 laps, and I want to make sure the thing holds up.

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it will hold together no less than the h22. 5000-8000 rpm for 20+ laps isnt easy on any engine thus the reason guys who compete a lot in these races typically use cheap, disposable engines. It appears he is using a good oil which will really help with wear.
Yeah, I use the best oil I can afford. 10w30 redline. And yeah, you hit the nail on the head, there. Cheap engines are the best for our applications. Things happen all the time and engines have to be cheap. Besides the high rpm stresses, we wreck, and sometimes break the radiator open. If the water drains out, the gauge doesn't work anymore, and we overheat the engine without knowing it. (we don't always come in during a wreck, so we don't always know the radiator leaked out.) Other times, we wreck hard enough to snap the engine mounts off the engine block. And other weird things happen as well. One time, I rode over a piece of debris and it punched a hole in the oil pan, and by the time I figured it out, the engine had it's bearings ruined. (I've been racing for a while now, so I've seen it all.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bykfixer View Post
^^ speaking of that, I suppose a good durable filter is also paramount...not your ordinary grippy tipped Fram. I remember reading here at pz that certain typical filters can collapse in on themselves in racing situations...
Got any filter tips Blake?
You'll never catch me running a fram filter on any of my cars. I run a K&N oil filter. I bought like 10 different filters and cut them all open and inspected them. The K&N was the best one in my eyes. I also liked the purolator gold.
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Old 08-17-2014, 08:42 PM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

PirateMcFred is an avid road racer (much harder on the engine) and does not run oil squirters in his builds. I am the same way. I prefer to redirect the oil to the bearings and even pick up some oil pressure.

If I were you, I'd run the standard h22 then get it properly tuned. If you need a little more rpm, going a little above 8000 isn't going to do anymore damage than racing already does. I spin my stock short block to 8200 and back when I was racing my prelude (with a stock engine), it revved to 8500 for the first couple gears. H22 can take more rpm than what people think but you have to be smart about it.
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Old 08-17-2014, 09:09 PM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

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Originally Posted by 98vtec View Post
PirateMcFred is an avid road racer
Old school with a capital O. I downloaded a cad drawing he did a while back.

Prelude as a road racer?
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

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Old 08-18-2014, 09:10 AM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

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Originally Posted by 98vtec View Post
PirateMcFred is an avid road racer (much harder on the engine) and does not run oil squirters in his builds. I am the same way. I prefer to redirect the oil to the bearings and even pick up some oil pressure.

If I were you, I'd run the standard h22 then get it properly tuned. If you need a little more rpm, going a little above 8000 isn't going to do anymore damage than racing already does. I spin my stock short block to 8200 and back when I was racing my prelude (with a stock engine), it revved to 8500 for the first couple gears. H22 can take more rpm than what people think but you have to be smart about it.
Good to know. I always assumed they were almost a requirement at high rpm applications.

Also, good to know about the rpm capabilities of the h22. I have a feeling that when the car gets it's new engine and maybe a new tune, it will need more than 8000 rpm with the current tires that I run, as I already hit my limiter every so often as it is right now. When you say you ran your factory short block to 8500, I'm assuming you had upgraded valve train? Do you think the factory valve train is capable of the higher rpm? When does valve float occur with factory parts? Also, does the h22 still make power at those speeds?
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Old 08-18-2014, 12:46 PM
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Re: Need some engine advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirttrackracindude View Post
Good to know. I always assumed they were almost a requirement at high rpm applications.

Also, good to know about the rpm capabilities of the h22. I have a feeling that when the car gets it's new engine and maybe a new tune, it will need more than 8000 rpm with the current tires that I run, as I already hit my limiter every so often as it is right now. When you say you ran your factory short block to 8500, I'm assuming you had upgraded valve train? Do you think the factory valve train is capable of the higher rpm? When does valve float occur with factory parts? Also, does the h22 still make power at those speeds?
stock internals and yes i do but only on stock camshafts. I am not sure when valve float would occur but i never encountered it that I know of. i would have expected to see some pretty worn comshafts or valve stem tips.

No, it does not make power that high but it allows you to keep you momentum going into a corner instead of upshifting at the last second which will slow you down just to be downshifting a split second later. a lot of wasted time in transition at that point which could simply be alleviated by revving slightly higher. you could also go with a slightly taller tire.

this is only my experiences and what I have done myself. engines do not like RPM to begin with so keep it in your head that it CAN fail on you due to spinning the higher RPM

Last edited by 98vtec; 08-18-2014 at 01:04 PM.
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