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New H22a4 engine build. skunk2 pro 2 cams sound strange/bad?

 
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Old 09-10-2015, 03:14 PM
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New H22a4 engine build. skunk2 pro 2 cams sound strange/bad?

I went to blacktrax in milpitas for this rebuild since I heard they did really good work on hondas, particularly h22's and F20c's. After a few months, they handed me back the car and gave me two options. first would be to tune the cams during the first dyno, second would be to perform the 1500 mile break-in one a base tune and then get re-tuned with cam tuning at that point. I chose the latter. Was that a bad idea?

From forum posts written by those who have skunk2 pro 2s in integra b-series motors, these cams are an iffy choice due to tuning, but when i look to H22 owners, i've seen very few to 0 complaints similar to what I'm experiencing.

Firstly, the cams idle very rough. Sometimes it's so bad it's like there's a cylinder not firing rough or like it's idling on the vtec lobe. The un-even pulsing (similar to the sound drag engines make) makes the car shake from time to time. They told me that the valve lash sound was normal, and typical with this cams, so I'm not including that in my definition of "sounding rough" (even though I think I should). also, idle was originally set at 1000. i upped it via s300 to 1200 which made it a bit smoother, but it'll oscillate between 1050 to 1500 pretty consistently. it seems to idle best at 1350. is this high or normal? Below 1000, it definitely sounds like it's grinding something and shakes the car something fierce.

Secondly, it sounds like the cams are creating a rubbing noise or whirring noise during acceleration and deceleration below 3000 rpm. During rubbing, it becomes hard to control an consistent engine speed. during whirring, it feels like I'm losing power.

Thirdly, although i think it's because it's been so hot lately, my engine threw a CEL overheating code twice after long trips.

I've called the shop and mentioned some of this within the first week because since this is my first rebuild, i have no idea what sounds are damaging vs which sounds are normal, so any tips you guys have would be greatly appreciated.

Here's a parts list so you know what i'm rolling with:

p13 header, competition valve job
supertech valves and dual springs, titanium seats and retainers
skunk2 pro 2 cams
skunk2 cam gears
skunk2 intake manifold, 74mm throttle body, aem short ram intake
weisco 11:5.1 89mm pistons
eagle rods
darton sleeves
vibrant 4-2-1 exhaust, vibrant 2.5" hi-flow cat, 2.5" ss exhaust
aem fuel rail
deatchworks 550cc injectors
wahlbro 255 lb/h fuel pump
fidanza 8lb flywheel

engine and head both hot tanked and look brand new; transmission was hot tanked as well during mfactory LSD install
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Old 09-11-2015, 10:05 PM
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Re: New H22a4 engine build. skunk2 pro 2 cams sound strange/bad?

The rough idle, high idle requirement, it sounds like vtec is on. Unplug the vtec solenoid and see if it helps. Make sure your cam gears are set to zero. Imo cam gears are a waste unless you are constantly racing at widely varying altitudes/terrain/conditions, in a race class that prohibits aftermarket cams, using stock cams by choice rather than am cams, or somehow you're in the late 1800's and there isn't a cam that can be made to suit the requirements. If you choose the proper cam for your build/driving habits, you will never need anything other than a cam setting of zero for street and most minor league racing.

Anyways, sorry about that. Set cams to zero, unplug vtec (don't just disable it the rom) and report back. I will think more on the whirl noise, but sounds like it could be the belt rubbing on the timing cover, and the power loss is either tuning, something else unrelated, or imaginary. Like I said, I will think on this more and get back if I have any suggestions.

Oh, and bleed the cooling system per repair manual, that may fix your heating issue.
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Old 09-16-2015, 02:25 PM
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Re: New H22a4 engine build. skunk2 pro 2 cams sound strange/bad?

I'll try disconnecting the vtec solenoid this weekend, but I can tell when the vtec IABs kick in since the cams are not tuned yet so I don't think that's the case. The cams are set to 0 currently.

At this point, i'm most concerned about the grinding/rubbing noise i hear/feel when accelerating or decelerating that's pretty consistent below 3k rpm. I don't want to damage a brand new valve train...

I chose these cams because they make the power curve linear, making the transition from vtec off to vtec on almost unnoticeable. Had I known they'd require such a high idle and be so rough I would have chosen something different like JUN cams. While driving at highway speeds the car is immensely enjoyable. But the engine sputters very frequently when shifting through gears at low speed; it's pretty frustrating trying to keep the engine smooth on side streets. But I'm beginning to think that this issue is a driving style issue since it's not consistent, and can be completely normal at times.

i also have an oil catch can hooked up. i put a breather filter on the left side of the valve cover and the baffled can (i removed the breather on it) is hooked up to the PCV valve and manifold. It idles much smoother now, but every now and then searches to find the right idle speed. I was told IAT is set at max so that might be why. When they first gave me the car back, they had the can vented with a breather filter and was hooked up to both connections on the valve cover. I think this way, it was as if the pcv was venting to the air instead of to negative manifold pressure and when I had done it this way in the past, it caused dramatic idle oscillations (800-2000 like a sin wave).
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Old 09-17-2015, 01:15 AM
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Re: New H22a4 engine build. skunk2 pro 2 cams sound strange/bad?

Sorry, I am going to start by nit-picking at the errors. Going from skunk2 to jun cams means nothing. Every manufacturer has many profile options for their cams. The IAB's are completely separate of the VTEC. IAB(intake air bypass) is the dual intake runner design. How did you max out the IAT (intake air sensor)? I suspect you meant IAC, or IACV (idle air control valve).

Okay, now on to the issues at hand. I would definitely find then source of the noise, but with out having the car infront of me, I don't know that I will be much more help on that. If your belts(including timing) are too tight they can make a working noise, but not grinding.

On the cams, if the overlap is too undesirable at idle, but you like the higher rpm performance, you can have just the low rpm lobes reground to something with wider LSA's for a smother idle and more "off idle" torque. This will also give you a stronger vacuum signal at idle, and a smother idle. The stronger vacuum signal will also stop the idle hunt and increase idle fuel efficiency. Since it sounds you're not entirely happy with the can choose, and you already have the adjustable gears, once you find/fix the noise, advance the intake can 2*, and retard the exhaust can 2*. If you like the results, do it again, and again, until you find a good compromise. Just don't go further than 6ish*. Much more than 6* f can change, you definitely have the wrong cams for your situation.

Your IAC duty cycle value should be near the middle, or 0% (typical scale goes from-20 to +20). Set the idle value you wish to use in the ROM under the idle tab of your ROM editor. Then adjust the idle set screw to try and obtain a decent idle. Too much or too little IAC duty cycle can cause idle hunting. Also I see you are using 550 injectors. If this is your first time tuning it can be difficult to get a good smooth idle using larger injectors. If you are tuning it yourself, just be patient with the idle fuel and timing columns until you get a good smooth idle, this maybe the most difficult part of the tune. What ROM editing program are you currently running the car off of? Are you using the stock ecu? If you're getting over heat codes I am assuming you are using the stock ecu.

It sounds like you have the catch can hooked up okay. But if I follow what you wrote, I would hook it up different. I would put the pcv in like stock. Then on the breather barb coming off the vavle cover, I would run this to the "out" of the can, then either put the filter on the "in" of the can, or plumb it to your intake tube in the stock location. This way at high rpm when the pcv is not active, the can will catch and hold the oil residue pushed out by the blow by instead of the oil blowing out the filter and making a mess under your hood.

I think the majority of your runability is a result of your cams, but before messing with any of that, get to the bottom of that noise.
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Old 09-17-2015, 02:01 PM
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Re: New H22a4 engine build. skunk2 pro 2 cams sound strange/bad?

Ok, thanks for the corrections and advice! Yes, I meant IAC.

I'm beginning to think that the rubbing/grinding noise are the belts too.

I have a p72 ecu with hondata s300 chip, so I'm using s300 to tune. Since I'm halfway through the break-in period, I'll likely wait for my tuning appointment and adjust the idle and cams with my engine builder instead of trying it on my own.

I'll report back with dynos and final conclusions afterwards. Thanks for the info; it's really helped set me at ease.
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