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Engine Upgrades

 
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Old 07-12-2013, 09:27 PM
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Engine Upgrades

So i have a question.

I want to upgrade my engine, but just how far do I need to go??

Would it be acceptable for me to upgrade the Camshafts, cam gears, pistons, connecting rods, crank gear, valves, and then go stock on everything else for the most part? Or will I need to keep upgrading parts after parts?

I was looking into what parts I want to go with for my build. and its getting pricey for my budget........ it would take me like 10 years at the rate im going to get all parts....

so how effective would it be for me to say go with

skunk2 pro1 cams
skunk2 pro series intake manifold
skunk2 pro series 68mm throttle body
skunk2 alpha valves
bisimoto pistons
bisimoto connecting rods
bisimoto bearings
all arp hardware
upgrade cam gears
upgrade crank gear
sleeve blocks
machine and "port head"? should i port?
bisimoto header
full 2.5 or 3 inch exhaust piping with cat, and muffler all welded
and of course upgrade fuel injectors, fuel pressure regulator, fuel rail
how about fuel pump?

then everything else engine internalwise stock? would that be ok? would any problems arise in the future? how about if i decide to go turbo in the future?
should i only sleeve the block if i am definitely gonna go turbo? or is it ok for N/A application?
and of course i am gonna do all gaskets, etc.

like stock crankshaft
stock rocker arms??
etc, etc

lmk, any input or advise is appreciated.
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Old 07-13-2013, 04:49 AM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

stock fuel pump is ok unless youre switching to fuel which have more ethanol like e85

I dont know about bisi pistons or bearings are they any good... which compression are you going for? that do you need that sleeving at all

stock rods are ok for that kind of setup

you said that youre short of money... ok lets make this little bit cheaper. forget these:

bisimoto pistons
bisimoto connecting rods
bisimoto bearings
upgrade crank gear
sleeve blocks
bisimoto header

just use stock rods, get type s pistons that you dont have to sleeve your block (just hone your cylinders), buy acl bearings and cheaper header (like vibrant?). you dont have to get another crank gear

then you need valvetrain upgrade of course

stock crank is ok (of course newers are little bit better than olders - more durable since theyre 5mm bigger) and there is no aftermarket rockers for h22. exept vtec killers

you should upgrade your clutch (+flywheel if you want)

but first you should decide do you want turbo or na car. you cannot use much same parts in those builds as you should know
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:04 AM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

Damn man, thanks for that response.
I guess I gotta think on the n/a or turbo build... I'm gonna read up more about it all on here and ill figure it out then... How much more money would I be looking At spending on a turbo build?

And you mentioned the newer crankshafts being 5mm bigger. I have an h23a1 block. So it's 95mm. Are u saying that size?
I do think the only thing I would replace back from my list is the bisimoto header just cause I love the style of it. Unless of course I go boost then i need a turbo manifold
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:43 AM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

I would definitely decide which route you are going NA or Boost before doing anything. that will drive the decisions on parts. There is no need to buy a 800-900 dollar header if you are gonna through a turbo on later. Plus that skunk 2 Intake mani won't do a hell of alot better than a hybrid setup on a boosted app maybe a K series intake with adapter Honda Tuner did a test and one of the JDM K mani's dusted the Skunk2 on an NA build just do some reasearch. There are better manifolds and setups for that setup. Don't just throw money and parts at it plan it out and match things up right and you can save a lot of money and get more out of it.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:57 AM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

true that. I have time to think about it all, and will do some reading on the N/A and Turbo sections now.

But type t, or anyone... those type S pistons wont really work without modifications because my block is an h23a1, and they will stick out of the block too far wont they? I would need to modify the rods wouldnt I?

thanks for the input guys, I am going to try to put together a new basic list and put it on here. I am not trying to spend a gazillion dollhairs on this lol, but i do want a higher performance engine to have fun with from time to time...
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Old 07-13-2013, 12:36 PM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

so I have been doing some reading, and I have decided that for this build which will be my daily driver, I want to go Naturally Aspirated.

Then with the h23a1 I pull out of it, I am going to build that for turbo and throw it into another shell I buy and use that for weekend fun, and maybe some drag racing. but thats years from now lmao.

so I am going to put together a list from the info you guys gave me, and some other info I am looking at on the net, and I will post it all up here for more input.
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Old 07-13-2013, 12:56 PM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectPrelude95 View Post
How much more money would I be looking At spending on a turbo build?
13k?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectPrelude95 View Post
And you mentioned the newer crankshafts being 5mm bigger. I have an h23a1 block. So it's 95mm. Are u saying that size?
oh sorry I was talking about main journal diameters

H22A4 = 55mm
H22A4 = 50mm (1997 Only)
H22A = 50mm
H23A = 55mm
H23A1 = 50mm
F22 = 50mm
F23 = 55mm
F20B = 55mm

h23/f23 crank/rods into h22 HELP - Honda-Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectPrelude95 View Post
But type t, or anyone... those type S pistons wont really work without modifications because my block is an h23a1, and they will stick out of the block too far wont they? I would need to modify the rods wouldnt I?
hmmm.. I dont really know that, I havent messed with h23's at all so..there might be problem if the h23 block height is different than h22s, but if the only difference is just rods, then youre ok

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Originally Posted by ProjectPrelude95 View Post
so I am going to put together a list from the info you guys gave me, and some other info I am looking at on the net, and I will post it all up here for more input.
well my setup is almost the same what youre going to put together and all I can say its pretty good for DD purposes, I tried to do my build that thing in mind
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Old 07-13-2013, 01:01 PM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

skunk2 pro1 cams
skunk2 pro series intake manifold
skunk2 pro series 68mm throttle body
skunk2 alpha valves, and skunk2 valve springs, still need the seals
new stock h23a1 pistons?
new stock h23a1 connecting rods?
bisimoto bearings
all arp hardware
upgrade cam gears
machine, polish, and port head, polish block
bisimoto header
full 2.5 or 3 inch?? exhaust piping with cat, and muffler all welded
p28 chipped ecu
new stock rocker arms
new balancer shaft? or deletion?
A/C, and P/S deletion
alternator relocation bracket
all new belts, and gaskets


am i forgetting anything?

how much whp do you guys think this will make? i can feel more comfortable with these prices. and how about the pistons???? type s pistons wont fit right from my knowledge... should i upgrade? or will it be fine to run new OEM pistons with the upgrades I am planning...?




EDIT: in response to your post just now type T, i believe the rods are bigger for h22s, so i should use h22 pistons with stock h23a1 rods?? because ive only read of rod modification due to fitment issues for these hybrid builds. but if you stick with h23a1 rods and pistons, your fine. its the difference in compression, and possibility of running into issues of the valves and pistons being to close....

and the crankshafts I have to look into more than, because i believe the length of the h22 crankshafts are 90mm, and h23a1 is 95mm...

Last edited by ProjectPrelude95; 07-13-2013 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 07-13-2013, 01:16 PM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectPrelude95 View Post
new stock h23a1 pistons?
new stock h23a1 connecting rods?
new stock rocker arms
I have to ask WHY? new rockers are F expensive, if you have to new them, get some used.

why new rods & pistons? you dont really have to new them if the stock ones are ok.

AND about that compression: you dont get everything out from those cams with h23 (9.6 comp) pistons. I had previous 10 compression and those cams wouldnt made much gains over stock (of course more torque across the powerband but not much more peak hp with that low compression)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectPrelude95 View Post
how much whp do you guys think this will make? i can feel more comfortable with these prices. and how about the pistons???? type s pistons wont fit right from my knowledge... should i upgrade? or will it be fine to run new OEM pistons with the upgrades I am planning...?
if I had to choose between 0.1 liters or over +1 more compression Id go with +1 more compression. +0.1 liter doesnt effect THAT much, you'll get much more better engine with higher compression so basicly what Im saying do h22 build instead of h23 if the pistons wont work with h23 block

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectPrelude95 View Post
EDIT: in response to your post just now type T, i believe the rods are bigger for h22s, so i should use h22 pistons with stock h23a1 rods??
still the compression is too low for those cams
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Old 07-13-2013, 02:04 PM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

so how about if i upgraded to those bisimoto h23a1 pistons, they would raise the compression. i can raise the compression to either of the following

10.7:1 or 12:1

if i did this, would i need uprgraded rods? or would stock rods be ok? and which would work best with the skunk2 pro1 cams? this way i would get +1 liter, and +1-3 compression lol. would that be suitable? i want to do this hybrid build, and if i have to i will go all stock, because i dont want to get an h22 block when i already have an h23a1, and i know i can build it to be better than a stock h22... even if i need to spend more money on pistons and rods, thats fine.

and i guess i can go used on the rocker arms... i just figured id get all fresh, new. are h23a1 rocker arms interchangeable? probably not, but figured id ask... im gonna try to find an internals interchangeable list....

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Old 07-13-2013, 03:39 PM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectPrelude95 View Post
so how about if i upgraded to those bisimoto h23a1 pistons, they would raise the compression. i can raise the compression to either of the following

10.7:1 or 12:1

if i did this, would i need uprgraded rods? or would stock rods be ok? and which would work best with the skunk2 pro1 cams? this way i would get +1 liter, and +1-3 compression lol. would that be suitable? i want to do this hybrid build, and if i have to i will go all stock, because i dont want to get an h22 block when i already have an h23a1, and i know i can build it to be better than a stock h22... even if i need to spend more money on pistons and rods, thats fine.
if 10.7 and 12 are your options Id get 12

well like I said I dont know much about h23s; that are the rods as durable as h22s.. and it depends that what rev limit youre going to use. I mean if youre going to make very high revving engine (like 9000) with high compression (12) it would probably be good idea to get better rods there..

my rev limit stays at stock 8000 with 11 compression so stock rods can still handle that

but do you have to sleeve the block with bisi pistons? I mean if you do its going to cost you more of course

anyway 12 compression h23 vtec sounds VERY interesting
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Old 07-13-2013, 03:44 PM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

If you're gonna do all of that, F20B swap and elimnitate the FRM wall issue.

5 psi and Forged rods, maybe some turbo cams with stage one valvetrain, larger oil filter (relocation kit) and upgrade the clutch/flywheel and CV axles, half radiator and intercooler, you can start having fun now and keep adding stuff for later.

will cost as much as all that you plan to do, less headace.
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Old 07-13-2013, 06:29 PM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

I decided I don't want to turbo this engine, maybe ill make another hybrid in the future and turbo that, ill look into it if the block needs to be sleeved with bisi pistons, but 12 compression would be good with pro1 cams? With that higher compression I need to upgrade fuel parts also correct, like say fuel injectors and pressure regulator?

I also have to look up the durability of the stock h23a1 rods to see what they can handle...

Back to some more research and we can put our heads back together after lol
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Old 07-13-2013, 06:55 PM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

12psi is alot man. If you are gonna boost f22 turbo. Don't have to do a damn thing to the block. Blow it up, get another engine.

The injectors minimum should be 650cc. I mean CB7tuner.com works as much with prelude motors as we do. Pm mobsta too, he'll show you how to remove your bumper, lol

Did you take care of that air/fuel ratio gauge issue
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Old 07-13-2013, 07:05 PM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

We are talking about 12:1 compression, not boost. Lol, even that being said I feel like its a lot, ill probably go with 10.7:1 which is pretty much 11 lol

Lmao, I was gonna try and find that out from guyan lol...

But yea it was a narrowband which works for me for the time being I am gonna be going with wideband when I get a new exhaust system during this build
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Old 07-14-2013, 12:38 AM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

so what sites do you guys recommend getting engine internals from, other than straight from the manufacturers?
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Old 07-14-2013, 03:51 AM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectPrelude95 View Post
but 12 compression would be good with pro1 cams?
11-12 should be ok


Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectPrelude95 View Post
With that higher compression I need to upgrade fuel parts also correct, like say fuel injectors and pressure regulator?
well I had to get better injectors just after head porting + skunk2 IM

I still have stock fuel pressure regulator

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectPrelude95 View Post
so what sites do you guys recommend getting engine internals from, other than straight from the manufacturers?
skunk2 parts + injectors you can get from rosko, you might get some good deal if you buy everything from same place

clutch, flywheel & pistons I bought from ebay but since youre going to use some bisi stuff you should probably contact them
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:56 PM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

Just checked my head again, turns out I completely looked over the fact that it came with rocker arms lol so I'm good on that
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Old 07-14-2013, 04:10 PM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

Ok, so after doing alot of reading on hondatech, watching youtube videos, reading on preludepower, wikipedia, etc, etc, etc, oh yea, and here lol.

i specifically read alot of what rosko, and 98vtec had written on honda-tech, and this is how its looking now.

Block-
Stock h23 crank, stock h23 rods, h22 mahle gold pistons, No sleeving, going to get it bored and honed by bisimoto though.

head-
skunk2 pro1 cams, skunk2 alpha valves, skunk2 valve springs and such, aem adjustable cam gears, undecided still though.... i will be machining the head myself with the help of my neighbor who runs a machining shop out of his garage lol. still looking into the porting process. oh yea, and stock rocker arms, which i currently already have.

then the others will be skunk2 intake manifold, bisimoto header, full 3in exhaust piping, hi flow cat, going to try to get an oem intake, new fuel injectors, aem adjustable fuel pressure regulator... i might be missing stuff but oh well, im gonna make a more detailed list when i get everything in order, figured id share my thoughts, and get comments from you guys while i figure out the final list with prices and everything.


two questions though. what exactly is the importance of porting your head, its not a necessity correct? only allows for better flow? how about if i just did my own port matching?

also, i still need to read up on injectors when its time to make a decision on them, but what size injectors do i need for this type of build? ive never really read up on injectors before, and will be but maybe a push in the right direction would help... i need to look up stock size, and figure it all out, but if anyone has opinions, feel free to discuss them with me lol.
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Old 07-14-2013, 05:14 PM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

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Originally Posted by ProjectPrelude95 View Post
h22 mahle gold pistons
see that

nippon type s pistons 11 compression $220
mahle gold 11.5 compression $575



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Originally Posted by ProjectPrelude95 View Post
and get comments from you guys while i figure out the final list with prices and everything.
Id still get that better clutch & flywheel combo if I were you

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Originally Posted by ProjectPrelude95 View Post
two questions though. what exactly is the importance of porting your head, its not a necessity correct? only allows for better flow? how about if i just did my own port matching?
well my head got intake side "ports" little bit reshaped as well as combustion chambers by one professional engine builder. I dont recommend anybody to try this at home, you can easily ruin your head!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectPrelude95 View Post
also, i still need to read up on injectors when its time to make a decision on them, but what size injectors do i need for this type of build? ive never really read up on injectors before, and will be but maybe a push in the right direction would help... i need to look up stock size, and figure it all out, but if anyone has opinions, feel free to discuss them with me lol.
obd2 h22a4 injectors 290cc saturated
obd1 h22a1 injectors 345cc peak and hold

I got 410cc Acura RDX injectors from rosko. they have pretty good spray pattern and size is good for upgraded engines
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Old 07-14-2013, 08:04 PM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

Thanks, I am getting better flywheel and clutch.
With the type s pistons do I need to sleeve the block?? No right since they are stock
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Old 07-14-2013, 09:12 PM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

Only thing I would recommend is to completely stay away from bisimoto. I would never buy anything at all from him. He will never get a penny of my money. Just look up some stuff about his customer service.

Its your build tho. I just wanna save you the headache you will probably run into with dealing with bisi
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Old 07-14-2013, 11:09 PM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

Thanks, I've never heard bad until now, but I've never looked into it... Thanks for the heads up, ill look into customer reviews before I make a decision, like I always do lol
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Old 07-15-2013, 12:38 AM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

Parts List:
Engine Block:
h23a1
Crank: OEM, owned
Connecting Rods: OEM, owned
Pistons: H22 type S pistons $220ish
Flywheel:
Clutch:
Bore and Hone: bisimoto? maybe
No sleeves

Cylinder Head:
H22a
Valvetrain: Skunk2 Alpha Valves+ springs, etc., Looking at around $500 total
Rocker Arms: OEM, owned
Cams: Skunk2 Pro1 $656
Cam Gears: AEM adjustables, $222 total
Machining: doing myself, $0
port/polish: still thinking

Fuel System:
Fuel Pump: OEM owned
Fuel pressure regulator: AEM adjustable, $130
Fuel injectors: still looking, if i go with Euro R, i will probably go with those RDX injectors
Fuel rail: undecided, Billet from Rosko with the Euro R (if i get it...)
Intake manifold: Skunk2 Pro series $384 OR Euro R from rosko racing, $795
Throttle body:still looking
Header: Vibrant $570
Catalytic converter: magnaflow Hiflow, owned
Catback: ill stick with my megan racing for the time being to save money.


thats about all im gonna do tonite, ill look over some more stuff tomm, let me know what you guys think

right now im at about $3500 oh jeez lol, i have no problem doing it, might take a little time though.... im gonna drop like $1000 this week on parts so we will see

Last edited by ProjectPrelude95; 07-15-2013 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 07-15-2013, 01:22 AM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

You forgot bearings.... If you're gonna do all that work, you don't want a spun bearing. Instant fail man. If you are putting in pistons, new rings, pins, bearings gotta be brand new. Head: new valve springs and locks and new head bolts. Milodon or Arp only. Gaskets for the oil pan, head, valve cover, and intake manifold, minimum. Both belts, unless you just did the timing belt.

These small items will keep your project on schedule trust. And the goal is you want to start all your maintenance at 0 miles, not tracking everything indiviually.
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Old 07-15-2013, 01:31 AM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

yea, i just left the list unfinished for now, but i had bearings picked out before, forgot to add them up, as for the gaskets, and bolts and head bolts, etc,etc, i was gonna make a misc. section on my list for all that. but thanks for the reminder anyway. and i have no idea when the belt was done last, on either engine i have, both h23a1s... thats part of the reason why i decided to do my h23vtec frankenstein build now, because i wanna get it in before anything serious happens to my h23a1 in my 95, so then i can rebuild that one... maybe a longer project, h23vtec frankenstein with intentions of boosting.

but the block for this build is coming from my 92 parts car... no idea the condition yet though, 5 of the head bolts are slightly stripped, and i wanna get a new socket for it tomm that will grip it better. then the head comes off, and i start getting ready to drop the block down.
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Old 07-15-2013, 04:17 AM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectPrelude95 View Post
Pistons: H22 type S pistons $220ish
little tip: get your block measured first before you buy any pistons!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectPrelude95 View Post
Flywheel:
Clutch:
when I was researching this thing last december this was my choice

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Originally Posted by TypeT View Post
I got Competition Clutch's set

Stage 1.5 clutch #8014-1500
Lightweight Steel Flywheel (~12-13 lbs/5,4-6kg) #2-701-ST

total 450$

The manufacturer advertises those like this:

"The ST flywheel is recommended for naturally aspirated and/or street driven applications.
Preserves low end torque and drive ability
One piece ring gear for high durability
Well suited for Stage 1 and Stage 2 clutch kit applications"

"The Competition Clutch Stage 1.5 is an economical solution for moderately modified cars or simply aggressive individuals with stock power.
Offers +40-50% of torque capacity and maintains stock pedal feel."

and they work just like they promised! pretty good for dd use

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectPrelude95 View Post

Intake manifold: Skunk2 Pro series $384 OR Euro R from rosko racing, $795
Throttle body:still looking
I just cannot justify getting expensive euro r when its not THAT much better than skunk2! I have been pretty happy with skunk2 IM

as well as I thought that I go with 66mm TB, what Ive read if its too big it does more harm than help. some engine building books say that 66mm is ok for ~290hp engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideswipe SI View Post
You forgot bearings....
Id say go for oem or acl
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Last edited by TypeT; 07-15-2013 at 04:23 AM.
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:55 AM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

From the dyno sheets I've looked through, and all the threads I've read through. The skunk 2 manifold gains 3hp over the stock euro r in the high end... But drops 1-2 hp in low-mid...

I would be getting a modified euro r intake manifold, and the reason why it's real expensive is because of the options. Plus I've heard the skunk2 needs a lot of modification, relocation, etc. with the options I choose with the euro r, it will pretty much be drop it in, bolt it up, plug it in, and that's it. Plus a lot more people have the skunk2 so I think it will be more unique to have that custom euro r
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Old 07-15-2013, 12:08 PM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectPrelude95 View Post
From the dyno sheets I've looked through, and all the threads I've read through. The skunk 2 manifold gains 3hp over the stock euro r in the high end... But drops 1-2 hp in low-mid...
IMO the euro r its not worth the cost

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Plus I've heard the skunk2 needs a lot of modification, relocation, etc. with the options I choose with the euro r, it will pretty much be drop it in, bolt it up, plug it in, and that's it.
nonsense

http://www.andysautosport.com/additi...07-05-0300.pdf

as you can see its really simple
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Old 07-15-2013, 02:10 PM
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Re: Engine Upgrades

and your rdx injectors fit properly? ive heard that modification is required for them...
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