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5th Gen H22A4 Problems

 
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Old 11-24-2012, 04:21 AM
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5th Gen H22A4 Problems

I figured I'd throw this thread together to compile all of the problems and attempted fixes I've run into the past month or so. Hopefully I can properly list a chronological sequence of events so you fine people can help me troubleshoot.

A while back, I swapped a motor in my 5G, same in as came out, USDM H22A4. Initially, I had starting problems, which ended up being self induced (with NO help from the less-than-accurate diagrams in Haynes manuals). Spark plug wires were in the wrong sequence. Fix't.

About 25 miles into driving this thing it threw a CEL, VTEC something or other. I removed the vehicles current VTEC solenoid, and installed a cleaner, fresher one from my old head. Fix't.

After daily driving the car for a few weeks (strictly to and from work) I ran into another issue; it began overheating when stopped. I checked the normal stuff, coolant levels, cap condition, changed the thermostat/seal. I'm still having to add coolant semi-regularly - previous owner used stop-leak which led me to believe the radiator leaks; new one on order. Upon further investigation I noted that my fans weren't coming on (no clue how I missed that) and if I jumped the connector that goes to the fan switch (located on the thermostat housing) my fans would kick on. Removed and replaced that switch, all should've been good. Nope. Idle overheat continued. I cleaned the IACV, and cleaned and adjusted the FITV to no avail. After some research, I found out that there are 2 coolant temp sensors that have input on fan operation, the one I hadn't changed yet was a 2-pin connector underneath the distributor. It was cracked around the base of the plastic connector, so I swapped it out with my old one and the overheating has come to an end. Needless to say, I am extremely proficient at bleeding the cooling system. Fix't

While all of the cooling issues were happening, the car threw its' first CEL. Bank 1 sensor 1. Changed the pre-cat o2 sensor, fix't.

After getting the VTEC, and cooling system handled and the o2 sensor code cleared, I began driving the car heavier, more often. Then a few other CEL's reared their ugly faces. Misfires, cylinders 1 & 2 and random/intermittent misfires. All clues pointed to an EGR malfunction. I yanked that EGR valve out, cleaned it up and op's checked it. All good, reinstall and press on. About the time this misfire junk showed up, I noticed the car began having a difficult time starting after it was warmed up (cold starts no problem, gas station trips no bueno). There's a very good chance it always had the starting issue, but I never drove it enough to run into it. So I got the misfire codes cleared by cleaning the EGR.

Let's recap:

No Start: Swapped plug wires - fix't
CEL #1: VTEC solenoid - fix't
Cooling Problem: Changed both fan temp switches - fix't
CEL #2: B1S1 O2 sensor - Replaced - fix't
CEL's 3, 4, 5 & 6: Cylinders 1 & 2 misfire, random/intermittent misfires - Cleaned EGR valve - fix't

Vehicle has a difficult time starting when warmed up.

Moving on. After much research into the starting problem (Yes, I read and complied with the steps in your 'final starting problem' thread twokexlv6coupe), I moved onto the infamous main relay. No dice, the relay was in perfect working order. After the relay fiasco I was parked in front of my house and the car began to idle extremely rough, and my CEL began to flash. Misfires! I saw fuel filter mentioned in some of the threads I'd read regarding the hard starts and thought it may help the misfire thing, so figured, "eh, easy enough I'll change it." **** me right? Worst job ever, I'd love to meet the genius who determined a fuel line should be torqued to eleventybillion ft lbs.

I digress. Hard warm starts, stumbling idle/misfires & new fuel filter. After the fuel filter replacement the car has become excessively difficult to start when cold or warm. It'll turn over and stumble for about 15+ seconds, and with some throttle manipulation, start (this sequence will be referred to as 'the gauntlet'). The only 'quick starts' it's capable of are after its warmed up and sits for under 5 minutes. Any longer and its a gauntlet. Once it started, it warms up normal, drives like a dream and idles great. It's almost as if it's trying to start utilizing only 2 cylinders. I figured now would be a good time to replace ignition components, so I did. I replaced the distributor rotor, cap, plugs and wires; I also slaved in a spare coil for good measure.

While troubleshooting the starting issue, I noted that the running conditions didn't change when I pulled the #2 plug wire, while the car was actively misfiring and idling rough. I positively eliminated any ignition problem. I checked for positive fuel pressure post-filter, pre-rail and post-rail; all good. Leaves the injector. I changed the injector and all is well for now.

If you've managed to read this far without losing interest, I'd like to ask for your help. Does anyone have any troubleshooting procedures/fixes I've overlooked for this starting problem? I also feel that this misfire thing isn't completely solved, but I can only throw so many parts at it. Please let me know if there's any other information you may require to make this process easier.

/RK
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Old 11-24-2012, 06:01 AM
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Re: 5th Gen H22A4 Problems

Are your spark plugs good and your spark plug wires? Have you tried running some sea foam in the vacuum lines? If the EGR and the IAVC are cleaned thoroughly not sure what else. Bump. Also try replacing the fuel filter might be clogged or some what clogged. Hope this helps.
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Old 11-24-2012, 03:35 PM
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Re: 5th Gen H22A4 Problems

Thanks for the reply Aced,

Spark plugs, wires, cap and rotor are brand new, and in good working order. I have in fact cleaned the IACV, FITV, EGR and replaced the fuel filter. Nothing's helped. It seems as though the fuel filter change made the starting worse lol. I haven't done the vacuum line seafoam thing, I'm not familiar with the procedure or its purpose.

/RK

Last edited by Richk14; 11-24-2012 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:40 PM
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Re: 5th Gen H22A4 Problems

Quick update: I checked the CKP and TDC sensors as per the Haynes manual with good results. The only sensors left to check are the MAP and CYP. Both of which I haven't any idea how to test.
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:55 PM
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Re: 5th Gen H22A4 Problems

i was thinking injector but you fixed that..
checked for vacuum leaks?
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welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
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I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

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Old 11-24-2012, 11:14 PM
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Re: 5th Gen H22A4 Problems

I've inspected all the vacuum components but I haven't done the soapy water test. I deemed it unnecessary given the car runs and idles normally once warmed up. I guess it wouldnt hurt to give it a shot though.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:55 AM
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Re: 5th Gen H22A4 Problems

i just wanted to give you props for your efforts thus far and trying to figure things out and fix them before making threads asking questions easily answered by just searching unlike many other people. Sorry I don't have any advice for you, good luck.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:45 AM
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Re: 5th Gen H22A4 Problems

Much appreciated, Hall. Forum posts are generally my last resort lol.
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Old 11-25-2012, 09:57 AM
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Re: 5th Gen H22A4 Problems

you must be pretty frustrated by now.. i think 2 steps ago i probably would have thrown some tools and put the car on the street with a free car sign in the window..

with that said, i figured maybe there's a vacuum leak at the tb that only show up at certain temps. did you sea foam the tb? i'm just learning all these electronics myself and like you rely on the manual or pz threads.. i'm wondering if it's not a compression issue.. realizing you just swapped the motor..


i'll ask around..
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welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
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Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
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I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:57 PM
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Re: 5th Gen H22A4 Problems

I'm going to do a compression test this evening if I get the chance. I'll re-check TB vacuum components. I haven't seafoamed anything yet.

I just tested the CYP as per a how-to I was directed to (test resistance between the yellow and black wires on the 4-pin plug on the distributor). It read 375.5 Ohms between the yellow & black wires, I'm told 260-460 Ohms means a good sensor, so I guess that's not the problem. What are the other 2 wires in that plug for? Also, what is the 2 pin plug for?

I've been thinking about it. Sort of a long shot, but what are the chances that my problems are caused by a base timing issue? As in, tensioner failure, belt skipped some teeth and is causing the starting issues because the ECU hasn't had a chance to correct the timing electronically? It shows 15* BTDC when I put a light to it, but that could be corrected by the ECU.

I've also thought maybe the ECU goes into safe-mode during start because of the possible timing issue - therefore causing a '2 cylinder start', and takes itself out of safe-mode once the timing is corrected/compensated for.
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:00 AM
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Re: 5th Gen H22A4 Problems

So, I did a cold compression test. Numbers were as follows:

Cyl 1: 148
Cyl 2: 152
Cyl 3: 138
Cyl 4: 145

I suppose those are decent numbers. Within the 10% deviation rule at least...

I noticed that a few drops of water were ejected from cyl 2 while doing the test. I had a sneaking suspicion that the HG was leaking, but I don't think that's the source of my starting problems.

I did another once over on the vacuum components on and around the throttle body. Looked alright.

I'm at a loss now, gents. I'm going to tear into the timing covers and see what's going on under there, unless anyone can come up with an alternate theory (see my previous post).

/RK

EDIT: I forgot to go WOT during the compression test. WOT numbers are:

Cyl 1: 160
Cyl 2: 160
Cyl 3: 150
Cyl 4: 160

Much better looking, but cyl 3 is still lower than the rest, but well within the 10% deviation.

Last edited by Richk14; 11-26-2012 at 01:27 AM.
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Old 11-26-2012, 03:12 AM
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Re: 5th Gen H22A4 Problems

Quick question. G101 - Mid engine bay ground, does it ground to the thermostat housing (the portion the hose connects to and the one you remove to change the thermostat) just forward of it to the part of the housing that mounts to the head itself (the one the thermostat sits in)?

EDIT: Does anyone know if a misfire could be caused if the G101 ground is intermittent?

Last edited by Richk14; 11-26-2012 at 04:46 AM.
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:36 AM
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Re: 5th Gen H22A4 Problems

pm a guy named funryd or jamie..both are long term honda guys..20+ years each..

if timing is off but was spot on...

check the diy engine thread for a diy tensioner. you may find that to your liking.

God bless ya man.. hope you find the answer soon..
mike
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:59 PM
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Re: 5th Gen H22A4 Problems

Has anyone any idea what ground(s) The injectors terminate to?

Will do Bykfixer, thanks.
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Old 11-26-2012, 10:29 PM
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Re: 5th Gen H22A4 Problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richk14 View Post
Quick question. G101 - Mid engine bay ground, does it ground to the thermostat housing (the portion the hose connects to and the one you remove to change the thermostat) just forward of it to the part of the housing that mounts to the head itself (the one the thermostat sits in)?

EDIT: Does anyone know if a misfire could be caused if the G101 ground is intermittent?


Yup that's exactly where that ground is.

When ppl do motor swaps, alot forget to connect that ground, which leads to them not being able to start the engine.
If you think that might be the problem, take the ground off and sand down both sides of the eye connector to provide a better connection.
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:03 AM
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Re: 5th Gen H22A4 Problems

So ground it at either point then? Or is one more preferred than the other?
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:02 AM
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Re: 5th Gen H22A4 Problems

I did some more looking, and found that when the plugs are pulled immediately after a misfire tantrum, there's water drops in #1 and 2 cylinders, sitting on top of the pistons and the plugs themselves are contaminated (not soaked though).

So, the ground (G101) explains the faulty cold starts whilst the HG explains the misfires and faulty hot starts. Water in cyls 1 & 2 also explains them misfiring, yet having the highest compression test values.

I guess it's time to hop online and order some HG/timing stuff. I'll keep you guys updated on progress/results. Thanks for all your help, you've been great.

/RK
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:04 PM
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Re: 5th Gen H22A4 Problems

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So ground it at either point then? Or is one more preferred than the other?
I don't understand where the other mounting point your asking about is
But more-or-less, a ground is a ground, as long as its a substantial hunk of metal.


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Originally Posted by Richk14 View Post
I did some more looking, and found that when the plugs are pulled immediately after a misfire tantrum, there's water drops in #1 and 2 cylinders, sitting on top of the pistons and the plugs themselves are contaminated (not soaked though).

So, the ground (G101) explains the faulty cold starts whilst the HG explains the misfires and faulty hot starts. Water in cyls 1 & 2 also explains them misfiring, yet having the highest compression test values.

I guess it's time to hop online and order some HG/timing stuff. I'll keep you guys updated on progress/results. Thanks for all your help, you've been great.

/RK

Yea sounds like a coupla different problems, making it a thousand times harder to diagnose.
Do you see air bubbles in the coolant w/ the rad cap off with the engine running?
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:21 PM
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Re: 5th Gen H22A4 Problems

Yeah I did. I figured it was a bad radiator, hence the new one in transit lol. I could hear some hissing out of #2 when I pulled that plug. So that, plus the water droplets in the same cylinders as the original misfires lead me to believe the HG should solve my problems.

My only question is why the water didn't immediately vaporize when introduced into the combustion chamber?
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:10 PM
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Re: 5th Gen H22A4 Problems

stab in the dark here: maybe the water is enough to intermitantly drown the spark enough to cause water drops to accumulate. i also know aintifreeze don't burn too sporty so it may be that the water evaps but the antifreeze don't and so on.
that could 100% bs.. as i said stab in the dark..

you strike me as an extremely patient and determined person. keep us posted please.

hope you can post 'fix'd' real soon.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead

Last edited by bykfixer; 11-27-2012 at 06:42 PM.
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