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CEL today makes someguy confused

 
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Old 04-25-2011, 03:03 PM
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CEL today makes someguy confused

ok thanks for reading this to begin with. So today when i leave work the lude starts a little rough, but its been doing that lately. It'll go up to about 1300 rpm in kind of a chugging putting manner, it'll smooth out go to 1500 rpm, warm up and act completely normal afterwards. The one time i gave it gas it stalled out, but started back up and did the chugging thing.
Once its warmed up its fine and you would never know it did that at all. So it didn't concern me too much i figured i might need to clean the IACV since i had to do the whole EGR Valve clean and drill out the plugs. In other words i wasn't too worried.
But today the CEL light stayed on and disabled my beloved ATTS. So i took it to the local autozone, got the code checked, it was 3rd cylinder misfire. I don't remember the code we didn't write it down. 1303 maybe? But the car was running fine so i just had him clear it. We both figured it was probably due to the rough idle issue.
Now after i did some searching i read that it could be due to air in the coolant lines. Now that got me thinking. It did overheat once and it was missing a lot of coolant. I don't think its getting into the oil cause my oil isn't a funny color or consistency. Also its not just draining to the ground cause no bright green puddles. But tbh i didn't check the radiator fluid in months and it could have boiled it away driving fast. But i did mess up and try and check the coolant level too early and got a face full of hot radiator fluid for trying. So now my engine smells like coolant and i can't tell if i have any new coolant burning smell cause everything is covered in dried coolant spray. Umm last week i changed out the plugs and wires so i don't think it could be that, maybe the distributor cap?
Ok and last but not least the CEL hasn't come back on after multiple starts. So help where do i start?
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Old 04-25-2011, 03:47 PM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

I would start with the EGR valve and the EGR ports, clean the ports the valve and replace the gasket because that would be the cheapest thing to start with, plus its pretty easy. I am pretty sure it cost me about $20 total lol.
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Old 04-25-2011, 04:09 PM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

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Originally Posted by keeganhmorgan View Post
I would start with the EGR valve and the EGR ports, clean the ports the valve and replace the gasket because that would be the cheapest thing to start with, plus its pretty easy. I am pretty sure it cost me about $20 total lol.
Already been done, and i changed out the spark plugs and wires a week ago. What i was leaning toward, was maybe cleaning the IACV. But some people say you have just replace them. Thats not right is it?
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Old 04-25-2011, 04:44 PM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

No I think you clean the IACV, are you sure you cleaned the EGR good enough? Here is how you test it out. There is a line on top of the EGR valve unplug that and it will give you a CEL but if your car starts running better then you gotta do it again. I would also just bleed your radiator since that will cost next to nothing and you mentioned it might be that.
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Old 04-26-2011, 12:47 AM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

EGR sounds suspect but ive always otten two DTC's for it. A missfire code and a mfg controlled exhaust system code. I would check your ignition and coolant. Just ceck, dont get all spend happy just yet.
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Old 04-26-2011, 04:51 AM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

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Originally Posted by keeganhmorgan View Post
No I think you clean the IACV, are you sure you cleaned the EGR good enough? Here is how you test it out. There is a line on top of the EGR valve unplug that and it will give you a CEL but if your car starts running better then you gotta do it again. I would also just bleed your radiator since that will cost next to nothing and you mentioned it might be that.
I cleaned the hell out of the EGR, it was like brand new when i was done. And i drilled out the plugs at the same time. Some folks like doing the IACV and the EGR at the same time but i felt that was a little too much to tackle at once. But that was just due to noob-ness. I'm thinking that the EGR was gunked up bad and the car has 270k miles, maybe i should just do it.
But bleeding the radiator sounds like a good idea though, not much $$ involved. And like Synergizer said no need to go spend crazy.
I was just reading and i guess radiator fluid goes in the IACV, (i'm not sure how exactly yet) but if there was air in the line it could cause problems. So hopefully that will fix things in the future. My next mission will be to bleed the radiator!
BTW the car started completely normally tonight. Would that indicate air in the line with the coolant?
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Old 04-26-2011, 02:19 PM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

I would clean out the Fast idle thermal valve. You said it acts funny when it's not warmed up, then when warmed up, it's fine. 2 coolant lines run through it I believe. The IACV would be the case if the car acted up when warm. Give it a nice cleaning and then bleed the coolant. Everybody has left this valve out in the past couple threads I read.
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Old 04-26-2011, 04:38 PM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

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Originally Posted by Vipers4Life View Post
I would clean out the Fast idle thermal valve. You said it acts funny when it's not warmed up, then when warmed up, it's fine. 2 coolant lines run through it I believe. The IACV would be the case if the car acted up when warm. Give it a nice cleaning and then bleed the coolant. Everybody has left this valve out in the past couple threads I read.
Wow I am stupid, I should have connected bouncy idle when cold and good idle when warm with the FITV! That even happened to my car lol, yeah either clean or replace the FITV and you should be good.
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Old 04-27-2011, 03:49 AM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

Hey cool! The FIV eh? I've got some reading to and learning to do then. Erm i mean oh yea the FIV its so overlooked. The word on the street is FIV is the red headed stepchild of valves. Yup that's what i heard.
Is it harder than the EGR to clean?
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Old 04-27-2011, 04:00 AM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

FITV
-Take it off the throttle body with 3 10mm bolts and 2 coolant hoses.
-Take the gold/bronze cap off the end with 2 phillips head screws. You'll see a wax ring/plunger under the cap; screw this down as far as possible, then back it out half a turn. Thats it. Then reassemble.

Is this really all there is too it? No carb cleaner or anything like that?
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Old 04-27-2011, 01:13 PM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

*** How-To*** Clean Your FITV aka Fast Idle Thermo Valve - Honda-Tech

That is for an integra, I am pretty sure it is almost the same. Should be easy!
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Old 05-16-2011, 02:21 PM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused *Update*

Update
Well guys i'd like to tell you that things are now going great but there has been a development. I bled the coolant and when i did that i noticed the fan never turned on. So that is a bad thing.
But the car was running normally and i hadn't done the FITV clean yet. I went to start it up the other day and it mis-fired bad. Real bad. I had to turn it off and try again several times and still got another CEL. This time misfire on cyl 3 and 4 along with multiple random misfires. I had autozone clear the codes figuring i'd drive it over to my mechanic buddy and clean the FITV. I got it home, parked it on Friday. Well the car won't start now. It won't turn over, it kinda does but just chugs and doesn't do anything anymore.
Now the prev owner had a battery tender thing installed so i plugged that in and it said it was charging things. I figured maybe the battery had gotten a little over used the last few days...maybe it got drained a little. Let it sit overnight and it still does the same thing.
Should i still go ahead and clean the FITV now or look at something else that is more immediate? Maybe the dizzy? Should i look at the spark plugs? I work midnights and all my friends work days so i won't have help until the weekend. Right now no CEL has come back on, so no codes to give.
What can i look at by myself to help diagnose things?
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Old 05-16-2011, 04:28 PM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

When you did the EGR you mentioned cleaning the EGR and replacing the port plugs, but did you clean the ports?

And taking off the distributor cap and looking at the contacts wouldn't hurt.
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Old 05-16-2011, 05:20 PM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

I followed the guide here so, yea? I'm pretty sure i did. And the EGR clean was done months ago. There was lots of wire brushes, carb cleaner, drills, black crap flying all over the place. But yea i'm positive that got cleaned up in the process. It was a while ago. If your thinking fuel, i can hear the whine of the fuel pump when i turn the key. If that helps.
What would i be looking for w/the dizzy cap? Scorching or corrosion maybe? Maybe i should have replaced that when i did the wires/spark plugs. Could there be too much awesome power coming to its old and stock looking self?
I'll go take a look and report back.
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Old 05-16-2011, 06:31 PM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

well i checked the distributor and it looks brand new inside so i'm guessing its ok. My spark plug socket went MIA so i couldn't look at the plugs but i reseated the #3 and #4 cylinder plugs.
One more thing, when i went to look for the spark plug socket in the trunk, i found a small puddle back there. Maybe 1/2 a gallon of water sitting next to my spare tire from the recent rains. Good times!
I'll try and post some pics of the spark plugs themselves once i locate the damn socket.
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:05 PM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

Here is pics of the plugs-The first two are cyclinders 3&4 and the last one is what 1&2 look like.
3&4 have an oily or gassy residue along with a petro chemical smell on them. 1&2 are dry and look and smell normal. (to me at least)
Should i call in some hired help?
Also on a side note, the battery tender said the battery was fully charged and still wouldn't start after reseating the spark plugs and wires. I figured why not try, stranger things have happened.
Due to formatting the middle pic is what cycl 1&2 look like..
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Old 05-19-2011, 04:36 AM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

Just wondering what would cause 2 to look all oily and why they wouldn't look all the same.
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Old 05-19-2011, 10:34 AM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

man, you might have some issues...

some ideas...

the misifires and your plug conditions with the residue, indicate something is getting into the combustion chamber.. looks like coolant residue... did the engine smoke when it did run? even if it didnt, the coolant had to go somewhere.. and with a small head gasket leak, the coolant level would slowly lower as it would get burnt in the combustion chamber.

with 270 k miles.. might be time for a compression test..on each cylinder. even a cylinder leakdown test, and a cooling system pressure test. could be a head gasket starting to go..

those tests will tell you where the coolant has been going, and where its going to.. and point you in the right direction..

those engines are awesome, but after 270 k miles, some parts need replacing.... like head gaskets, etc...

with the residue on the plugs, it will be difficult to run correctly, or idle, and surely misfire, or even not start at all, as that is the issue you are having now..

to answer your plug question, the plugs can look different because if the head gasket is leaking, then one or more cylinders might only be effected... they each have a crush ring and a water jacket around each cylinder..

and with tight tolerance engines, like hondas, a head gasket can go out partially, not completely, like on a chevy, and may or may not leak coolant into your oil...

another thing... just cause u can hear the fuel pump running, does not mean it is putting the correct amount of fuel pressure to the fuel injectors...

lack of proper fuel psi will cause hard starting and poor idle... look up the spec, but, i think most FI engines require above 44 psi on the fuel rail.. have to test it with a fuel pressure gauge.

have your mechanic buddy to the above mentioned tests and see what you find out..
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Old 05-19-2011, 05:17 PM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

Well i did a compression test and it breaks down like this
Cyl 4- 190 psi
Cyl 3-181 psi
Cyl 2-180
Cyl 1- 140

There was a lot of fuel spewing out of 3&4 before putting the plugs back too, not like 1&2 at all. There was some but not as much.
Luckily i have the service records from since the car was purchased at the dealer. Lots of stuff, the oil pan gasket has been replaced 2x..But looks like the head gasket might be the culprit then since its never been replaced.
I was able to check and we are getting spark as well, my buddy was leaning toward leaky fuel injectors on 3&4.
Maybe replace the fuel injectors on 3&4 and if that doesn't work, replace the head gasket?
Are there any recommended Fuel Injectors or ones to stay away from?
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Old 05-20-2011, 08:55 AM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

cool man, good to see some good numbers from your comp check.

140 is a little low compared to the other 3... but acceptable for 270 K miles!
ring gap & leakage around the valve faces/seats probally...

i would still do the coolant system pressure test and or the cylinder leakdown test along with the compression test you already did.

those will tell you right away about the head gasket and the cooling system issues..

its also possible for your fuel injectors to fail as well. if the plugs are soaked with gas and raw fuel flew out of the spark plug holes....

a fuel injector is just an electric soleinoid.. in opens and closes with an electrical pulse from the ECM and delivers the atomised fuel to the combustion chamber... needless to say, they have to be precise for the engine to run and start... and not cause a misfire...

fuel should not be spraying out of your cylinders ever.. unless there is a fuel delivery issue... FI systems operate with a fine atomized mist spray coming out of the injectors..

factory honda fuel injectors are the best... hell they lasted 270 K miles didnt they.. thats a pretty good service life... u could get a used set from a junk car,, ebay, or new at honda $$$ or aftermarket.. but you get what you pay for...

another option is to send them out and have them ultrasonically cleaned and re assembled with new seals... less $$ but you are still using a used part..


i would replace all the fuel injectors. or get them serviced... the other 2 will just go out like the bad ones.. sooner or later.. fix it once, fix it right.. your car will thank you and be more reliable.

then go for the testing and headgasket/timing belt/waterpump overhaul...

have the head checked for flatness at a machine shop and clean the surfaces exceptionally clean and torque the head bolts and cam bolts to spec!
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Old 05-26-2011, 08:38 AM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

Well i thought i'd update. She still isn't starting. Things i have done.
replaced spark plugs and wires
distributor cap and rotor
fuel injectors for cyl 3 & 4 - gas no longer flies out of the cylinders.
fuel filter
as well as all the other stuff i've mentioned. We have pressure building from the fuel pump cause we had to release it and bleed it.Turns out you need a special nut for the fuel pressure gauge tho so i can't give a number. Is that right guys? I swear to god if i have to buy another gauge i will shoot the CEO's of every major auto-parts store right between the eyes.
My mechanic buddy is grasping at straws now i think. He was thinking it might be the timing but that was done less than 1yr ago at the dealer.
I'm thinking about just towing it to a shop but i'm afraid they'll say to rebuild the engine or something crazy. My garage is cramped so its not something i can get done at my place anyways.
What do you guys think? Could it be just deader than disco?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2011, 08:46 PM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

Well it started today! Don't really know why but hopefully it'll continue to act right. :)
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Old 06-02-2011, 07:40 AM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

It ****ed up again....i took it to a shop. Hopefully it won't get ugly.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 06-07-2011, 10:30 AM
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Re: CEL today makes someguy confused

The shop replaced the Engine Coolant temp sensor did a valve adjustment and told me to buy a new radiator cap.
Now all i need to do is fix the exhaust leak and i'm right as rain!
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