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Why do Honda's have no torque?

 
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Old 04-26-2009, 11:34 AM
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Why do Honda's have no torque?

has anyone else wondered this?
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Old 04-26-2009, 11:51 AM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

some f22's make more tq than hp, the h23's are pretty equal.
I think its got alot to do with the size of the piston and how far they're gonna have to travel to compress the air in the cylinder
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:05 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

Displacement has a lot to do with it as does compression.
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:13 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

thanks, it sucks that we are lacking torque when bone stock even with a few bolt ons my friend makes 250 lbs with a 3.8 sc buick regal
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:56 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

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Originally Posted by H22lude317 View Post
thanks, it sucks that we are lacking torque when bone stock even with a few bolt ons my friend makes 250 lbs with a 3.8 sc buick regal
Well it's got 2 more cylinders, 1.6L more displacement, and a super charger
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Old 04-26-2009, 01:56 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

cause hondas don't need it.
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Old 04-26-2009, 02:59 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

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Originally Posted by InvaderTrax View Post
Well it's got 2 more cylinders, 1.6L more displacement, and a super charger
never would have thought that would make torque

wow paul fist post i've seen you do in a while lol

I agree completely with si speed

as the saying goes...
there is no replacement for displacement

not that I agree with it lol
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Old 04-26-2009, 03:34 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

My 2 cents: Its because we dont drive big V8 gas guzzlers. Our motors are half the size of most torque monsters and displacement=torque. Our motors were made to be small, lightweight and gas efficent. What our motors lack in torque we make up for it in weight, and the ability to make the most hp at a much higher rpm. If you have a i/h/e h22 try racing a 4.6 mustang V8 you will notice that the torque from the V8 will allow the mustang to pull hard off the line but right around 5200 rpm (depending on vtec x-over) you will pull on the mustang (or similar car). If your a good enough driver and you can stay in vtec after 1st gear then you will notice that the honda technology can overcome torque. Don't get me wrong, there are alot of V8s that have way more torque and will completely kill an h22, but i find that this is the most comparable car.
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Old 04-26-2009, 03:35 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

There is a replacement for displacement, to an extent, and it's call boost.
Displacement does help though.

A good example is a rotary. 1.3L with no torque without boost. You can't bore those out or put in a stroker kit. All that you can do is port it and boost it.

At the end of the day though, if it's a street or drag car, track time numbers are what matter, not what the dyno says.
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Old 04-26-2009, 03:36 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

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Originally Posted by InvaderTrax View Post
Well it's got 2 more cylinders, 1.6L more displacement, and a super charger
and our cars are not bricks!

and after having a civic, the torque on my f22 is nice, its not great, but for the efficiency and cost to run the motor, ill take it right now for my college DD.
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Old 04-26-2009, 03:59 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

an h22 makes 70ft/lb per liter. that buick makes 65ft/lb per liter. hmmm... honda motors make no torque??????? really. per cyl the buick only makes 2ft/lb more. whoa, holy crap, 2ft/lb. ppffffttttt PATHETIC.. considering the cylinders are bigger and the motor is supercharged. its a proven fact honda has more output per liter then the average car manufacturer. you can look at all their motors. here are just 3 i took, the more performance oriented vehicles with the accord being the lesser of the 3.

97 NSX 3.2L v6= 70ft/lb per liter (same as h22)
00 accord 3.0L v6 = 65 ft/lb per liter
07 TL type s 3.5l V6 =73 ft/lb per liter

now lets take the VETTE. a 6.2L HIGH PERFORMANCE VEHICLE with 424 ft/lb of torque only manages 68ft/lb per liter.

and you say honda doesn't have any torque.

ok lets do it per CYL. the vette is 53 per cyl. but each cylinder is 1.3L. the TL with the biggest motor of the 3 is .58 liters per cyl... just shy of half. so theoretically it should make HALF the torque per cyl, right? the TL has about 42.5 per cyl. 10 less. imagine if honda made a v8. they'd make a 4.5L v8 that would not only have more hp and torque per liter. but it would have more torque and hp period.

the reason you don't feel the torque, is because most hondas out there have a really smooth torque curve. most chevys have that instant torque that dies off as you get closer to the redline. its a KNOWN FACT. honda does more per liter then any pretty much every company out there. they even beat some cars with forced induction, as proven with that SC'd buick.
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Old 04-26-2009, 04:25 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

so the answer as to why we dont feel torque is because of our smooth torque curve, noted. Honda probably did it like this because Preludes are still considered economy cars

it still would be nice to not have to downshift to get some power..
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Old 04-26-2009, 05:41 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

nicely put Drew. the h22 was called the honda big block for awhile. we may not be able rev out like b series but we do have the torque.
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Old 04-26-2009, 05:53 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

I fully understand now thanks
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Old 04-26-2009, 06:57 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

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Originally Posted by Drew View Post
an h22 makes 70ft/lb per liter. that buick makes 65ft/lb per liter. hmmm... honda motors make no torque??????? really. per cyl the buick only makes 2ft/lb more. whoa, holy crap, 2ft/lb. ppffffttttt PATHETIC.. considering the cylinders are bigger and the motor is supercharged. its a proven fact honda has more output per liter then the average car manufacturer. you can look at all their motors. here are just 3 i took, the more performance oriented vehicles with the accord being the lesser of the 3.

97 NSX 3.2L v6= 70ft/lb per liter (same as h22)
00 accord 3.0L v6 = 65 ft/lb per liter
07 TL type s 3.5l V6 =73 ft/lb per liter

now lets take the VETTE. a 6.2L HIGH PERFORMANCE VEHICLE with 424 ft/lb of torque only manages 68ft/lb per liter.

and you say honda doesn't have any torque.

ok lets do it per CYL. the vette is 53 per cyl. but each cylinder is 1.3L. the TL with the biggest motor of the 3 is .58 liters per cyl... just shy of half. so theoretically it should make HALF the torque per cyl, right? the TL has about 42.5 per cyl. 10 less. imagine if honda made a v8. they'd make a 4.5L v8 that would not only have more hp and torque per liter. but it would have more torque and hp period.

the reason you don't feel the torque, is because most hondas out there have a really smooth torque curve. most chevys have that instant torque that dies off as you get closer to the redline. its a KNOWN FACT. honda does more per liter then any pretty much every company out there. they even beat some cars with forced induction, as proven with that SC'd buick.
output per liter is a complete bullsht argument. All that matters is the finished product. Look at the big picture. LS1 F-bodies put down 310hp and were rated at 26 mpg in a 3800 lb car. That is more efficient then any Ferrari out there let alone a Honda (motor to motor. Im not comparing an F-body as a car to a Ferrari). My 85 camaro has a carbureted 350 in it that gets 20 mpg on the highway if Im easy on it. Its putting down like 400 crank hp with technology developed in the late 50's. My h23 lude gets the same mileage as an LS1 car but making crap for power in a way smaller car and you want to tell me GM cant engineer sht? The GM 3800 motors were/are unbelievably cheap and did their job well. They might not be engineering marvels but they came in $20k cars and lasted forever. Go tell a Grand National owner that the 3.8 is garbage and see what happens lol. Honda still has yet to come out with a car that was a fast as the GN in the same price bracket... or at all. GN's are faster then s2000's and NSX's are like what $80k? For an engine that was designed in the 80's it was way ahead of its competition.

As said before the bottom line is there is no replacement for displacement. And no a stock h22 wont keep up with a stock 4.6 Mustang. Maybe a non-PI 4.6 (mid 90's) but those motors were garbage so they dont count lol.

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Old 04-26-2009, 07:36 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

simply because its a four cylinder honda.
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Old 04-26-2009, 07:45 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

hold on...your comparing a grand national to a prelude??? grand nationals are TURBO. and only one of the gm motors, the 3.8 was one of the only ones that wasn't a complete pile of junk. even still they are notorious for intake manifold gaskets blowing/ignition modules frying/harmonic balancers falling to peices. sure the motor for what is worth weren't crap but what was engineered around the motor to run it did. hence why gm cars are so much cheaper. you end up paying more then the car is worth to keep them running. TRUST ME... the GRAND NATIONAL is buy far one of the most SUPERIOR CARS that gm has ever made. and im sorry my friend FORDS dont even start that discussion.

ps I owned a 96 buick riveria 3.8 supercharged. it wasn't that great trust me.
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Old 04-26-2009, 08:09 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

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hold on...your comparing a grand national to a prelude??? grand nationals are TURBO. and only one of the gm motors, the 3.8 was one of the only ones that wasn't a complete pile of junk. even still they are notorious for intake manifold gaskets blowing/ignition modules frying/harmonic balancers falling to peices. sure the motor for what is worth weren't crap but what was engineered around the motor to run it did. hence why gm cars are so much cheaper. you end up paying more then the car is worth to keep them running. TRUST ME... the GRAND NATIONAL is buy far one of the most SUPERIOR CARS that gm has ever made. and im sorry my friend FORDS dont even start that discussion.

ps I owned a 96 buick riveria 3.8 supercharged. it wasn't that great trust me.
Im comparing the Grand National to Honda as a whole haha. And pretty much every motor GM makes today is a good motor, especially their LS based v8's. The 4 cyls in the base saturns and stuff still suck but who cares when they have hybrid 6.0 Yukons getting the same city mileage as a Camry? lol. In the 80's and early 90's yea their 4 cyl and 6 cyls for the most part were crap with some exceptions but thats not the case anymore. IDK where you get that theyre "notorious" for all that. They had a bad run with the Optispark ignitions in the old LT1 cars but thats about it. I dont know what you were expecting out of a 96 Buick. Obviously its not gunna be that exciting but I guess compared to a 96 Camry or a 96 Taurus it was if that means anything lol. Bottom line tho all Im saying is the hp per liter argument is BS when talking about performance.
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Old 04-26-2009, 08:48 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

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The 4 cyls in the base saturns and stuff still suck but who cares when they have hybrid 6.0 Yukons getting the same city mileage as a Camry? lol
yeah if your all about paying 2.5 times what you would for a camry.

while in total performance on the track/strip hp/torque per cylinder/displacement doesnt mean much, honda makes engines with very similar numbers to the big players in the game.
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Old 04-26-2009, 09:00 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

he pretty much said it right there^ the point isn't about my motor puts out 70tq per liter which makes it a better motor then your v8 that does 68tq. i was pointing out that even though most cars have more torque the a typical honda, its because honda uses smaller motors. but they still compete with their competitors. you simply can't compare a GNX to a prelude. but you can compare as a whole, chevy to honda. and that honda does more with less displacement. they can achieve higher numbers and better efficiency with smaller motors. i thought i made it pretty clear when i said if honda made a v8, it would be a 4.5L that would out run a 6.2L
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Old 04-26-2009, 09:10 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

They have a v10.. for obvious reasons

and they announced they are considering putting a v8 in production

just for those who don't keep up with whats going on in honda land

I'm with drew on everything he said.... probably because I understood what he meant...

and he was right about the 4.5
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Old 04-26-2009, 09:32 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

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As said before the bottom line is there is no replacement for displacement. And no a stock h22 wont keep up with a stock 4.6 Mustang. Maybe a non-PI 4.6 (mid 90's) but those motors were garbage so they dont count lol.
I beg to differ.
Even the early-mid 2000's base Mustang GT's ran high 14's.
A Roush, Cobra, Mach 1, etc. are all dfferent stores though.

H22 4th gens can run mid 14's and 5th gens can run high 14's.

Granted, most don't because most people who could do that with their cars have modified them. A car is an extension of the driver, so to say a stock Prelude can't beat a stock 4.6 Mustang is completely wrong.
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Old 04-26-2009, 10:12 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

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And no a stock h22 wont keep up with a stock 4.6 Mustang. Maybe a non-PI 4.6 (mid 90's) but those motors were garbage so they dont count lol.
well just my experience but i have a stock h22 with i/h and have pulled on about three of them at my local track by at least a car. but thats just what ive delt with not tryin to argue but just lettin you and everyone know.
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Old 04-26-2009, 11:33 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

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well just my experience but i have a stock h22 with i/h and have pulled on about three of them at my local track by at least a car. but thats just what ive delt with not tryin to argue but just lettin you and everyone know.
Well whatever I stand corrected then. Honestly I dont know much about 5th gens and I didnt think they were 14 sec cars stock. My bad.

And Drew I get what youre saying... Im just saying Honda isnt any better then anyone else when it comes to small motors. Not anymore anyway. Some are impressive but every brand has their impressive engines. Its all build material, compression and rpm's. It just depends how far they want to push it in their production cars. Youre crazy if you dont think any of these companies have the resources to engineer 100 hp out of a briggs and stratton lawn mower or some sht. GM is pumping over 1000 hp out of stock production 4 cyl Ecotec blocks. Honda is doing less out of larger v6 blocks. Does that mean GM is better at working with less when it actually matters? My brain is starting to hurt from this.
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Old 04-26-2009, 11:35 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

I know of a 4000hp integra
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Old 04-26-2009, 11:59 PM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

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I know of a 4000hp integra
stock block?
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Old 04-27-2009, 01:02 AM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

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Bottom line tho all Im saying is the hp per liter argument is BS when talking about performance.
all #'s argument is not really worth it all that matters is whats in real life. Yes one has this hp/tq and all that but each car is built the way it is from the factory for a reason. Heck i got a engine that put's down more hp and tg then most ppl have seen at my house....it just so happens to be a komatsu.
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Old 04-27-2009, 02:14 AM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

Hi, it's my first post here, well I wonder why if we lack so much torque, we can compete with v8's? I think it's the technology and engineering that's put it them, not to be mean but most American cars won't last as long as Hondas.
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:17 AM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

i'm quite happy with how torquey my typeS is, i was actually surprised by it when i first drove it
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:59 AM
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Re: Why do Honda's have no torque?

you ever hear that saying, VTEC: sometimes it takes a catchy phrase to let people know your car doesnt make power until 5,000 rpms. this just proves it lol
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