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Dylan's Turbo Question Thread

 
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Old 06-08-2009, 11:52 PM
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Dylan's Turbo Question Thread

From what I have been reading external wastegates are better for high boost applications.

Is this BS or not?

My goal is 300-350whp, how much psi that will take then depends on the turbo I choose.

If I choose internal wastegate would that limit my choices for turbos?

Which are you running on your car?

Thanks for any help!
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:09 AM
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Re: Wastegate: Internal or External?

boost creep issues are pretty common with internal gates. this is due to the size of the wastegate sometimes isn't proportional to the size of the turbo.
with externals, there's 35mm, 38,40,44, etc.
also with internals, at low boost sometimes they don't fully open, and at higher boost levels, sometimes they start opening too soon, which is due to their design.

*edit* and yes if you choose internal, it'll severlyyyy limit your turbo options. i would say only about 20% of the available turbo's for our cars are internally gated, at most.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brash View Post
But you need that scoop on the hood. Is it true that they're big enough to fit your lunch box and all your camera gear in it?

Last edited by twokexlv6coupe; 06-09-2009 at 12:13 AM.
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:18 AM
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Re: Wastegate: Internal or External?

Quote:
Originally Posted by twokexlv6coupe View Post
boost creep issues are pretty common with internal gates. this is due to the size of the wastegate sometimes isn't proportional to the size of the turbo.
with externals, there's 35mm, 38,40,44, etc.
also with internals, at low boost sometimes they don't fully open, and at higher boost levels, sometimes they start opening too soon, which is due to their design.

*edit* and yes if you choose internal, it'll severlyyyy limit your turbo options. i would say only about 20% of the available turbo's for our cars are internally gated, at most.
oh gawd this quick response help is completely awesome.

thank you sooooo much.

i will def. go external then. what mm size to run would be my next question, but again, it will deal with what size turbo i decide to run.
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:24 AM
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Re: Wastegate: Internal or External?

tial 38mm. its what i got, and is good for like 400hp'ish.
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But you need that scoop on the hood. Is it true that they're big enough to fit your lunch box and all your camera gear in it?
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:32 AM
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Re: Wastegate: Internal or External?

well thats above my goal for sure.

i am aiming in the range of 300-350 whp
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:33 AM
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Re: Wastegate: Internal or External?

and it leaves you room to grow. and trust me, your gonna wanna. just lookie my sig
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Ivey Tuned - Advan - Cobb - Rallispec - CP - Perrin - ACT - KillerB - Carillo - TurboXS - Defi - Innovate - Walbro - DeatschWerks - Feal - H&R - Alpine - Infiniti - Curt

2001 Kawasaki STX1100 D.I. - Sold!
2007 Sea-Doo RXT 215; ET 127 +3 S/C impeller, DIY 3" intake, DIY resonator delete/free flow exhaust, DIY oil catch can, Rule 500gph bilge pump


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brash View Post
But you need that scoop on the hood. Is it true that they're big enough to fit your lunch box and all your camera gear in it?
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:38 AM
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Re: Wastegate: Internal or External?

Quote:
Originally Posted by twokexlv6coupe View Post
and it leaves you room to grow. and trust me, your gonna wanna. just lookie my sig
yeah i noticed that haha!

let me see if i understand this though.

the spring pressure tells you at what psi it will open?

I see the Tial 38mm is offered in .9 bar and .5 bar, 1 bar = 14.7psi.

Without knowing how much boost is going to be put into this system, how would I know which spring pressure to get?

Or will I be deciding on a turbo before the spring pressure?
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:50 AM
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Re: Wastegate: Internal or External?

Quote:
Originally Posted by My97Prelude View Post
let me see if i understand this though.

the spring pressure tells you at what psi it will open?

I see the Tial 38mm is offered in .9 bar and .5 bar, 1 bar = 14.7psi.
correct.... for the most part. wastegates start opening a bit before the intended pressure, then once the desired boost level is achieved, the WG is fully open.



Quote:
Originally Posted by My97Prelude View Post
Or will I be deciding on a turbo before the spring pressure?
yup.
1) select desired power goal.
2) find a turbo that is correctly sized so that it'll make your desired amount of power while being in the compressors efficiency range, found by using the turbo's compressor map.
3) use the equations to see at what boost level it'll take to reach that power, then order the WG spring.

i hope this also helps other people to understand why saying "an H22 can handle 7psi safely" is an idiotic thing to say. 7psi out of a t25 will prolly make 220whp. 7psi out of a GT35r will make around 375whp.
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2000 Acura TL; DD
2005 Stage2.5+ Subaru WRB STi : RzKar!
Ivey Tuned - Advan - Cobb - Rallispec - CP - Perrin - ACT - KillerB - Carillo - TurboXS - Defi - Innovate - Walbro - DeatschWerks - Feal - H&R - Alpine - Infiniti - Curt

2001 Kawasaki STX1100 D.I. - Sold!
2007 Sea-Doo RXT 215; ET 127 +3 S/C impeller, DIY 3" intake, DIY resonator delete/free flow exhaust, DIY oil catch can, Rule 500gph bilge pump


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brash View Post
But you need that scoop on the hood. Is it true that they're big enough to fit your lunch box and all your camera gear in it?
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:56 AM
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Re: Wastegate: Internal or External?

Quote:
Originally Posted by twokexlv6coupe View Post
correct.... for the most part. wastegates start opening a bit before the intended pressure, then once the desired boost level is achieved, the WG is fully open.





yup.
1) select desired power goal.
2) find a turbo that is correctly sized so that it'll make your desired amount of power while being in the compressors efficiency range, found by using the turbo's compressor map.
3) use the equations to see at what boost level it'll take to reach that power, then order the WG spring.

i hope this also helps other people to understand why saying "an H22 can handle 7psi safely" is an idiotic thing to say. 7psi out of a t25 will prolly make 220whp. 7psi out of a GT35r will make around 375whp.
ahhh it helps so much do a little bit of research before i ask questions, people will help when they understand some of it. just not when they have no clue whats goin on.

thanks for all this help, you and bustr will probably be my two helpers over the next few months as i research.

for tonight im out, tomorrow I will start lookin at turbos and reading about these compressor maps.
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Old 06-09-2009, 01:00 AM
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Re: Wastegate: Internal or External?

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...o_tech101.html

read all 3 pages. explains everything wonderfully. plus a lil bit of math never hurt no one. some claim it killed einstien..... thats BS.
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Ivey Tuned - Advan - Cobb - Rallispec - CP - Perrin - ACT - KillerB - Carillo - TurboXS - Defi - Innovate - Walbro - DeatschWerks - Feal - H&R - Alpine - Infiniti - Curt

2001 Kawasaki STX1100 D.I. - Sold!
2007 Sea-Doo RXT 215; ET 127 +3 S/C impeller, DIY 3" intake, DIY resonator delete/free flow exhaust, DIY oil catch can, Rule 500gph bilge pump


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brash View Post
But you need that scoop on the hood. Is it true that they're big enough to fit your lunch box and all your camera gear in it?
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:30 PM
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Re: Wastegate: Internal or External?

Quote:
Originally Posted by twokexlv6coupe View Post
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...o_tech101.html

read all 3 pages. explains everything wonderfully. plus a lil bit of math never hurt no one. some claim it killed einstien..... thats BS.
oh snaps

really helpful link.

im all the way to calculations, how would i figure out the atmospheric pressure where i live? im 1305 ft above sea level.

I don't want to just assume and say im at sea level.

EDIT:

found some form of calculator thing on google that said the atmospheric pressure where i am at is 14.01

is that .06 going to effect my calculations a whole lot?

its only changing the gauge boost number by about .7 or so, changing it from 14.88 to 15.57

EDIT #2:

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...R_780371_2.htm

I am thinking that turbo will be best for my setup.

I am getting a air flow of 36.3 lb/min at 7500 rpms, and 25.7 at 5000 rpms. With a pressure ratio of 2.3, that plots almost the middle island on the graph.

Edit #3:

You could probably just change the title of this topic to Dylan's Turbo Question Thread, that way I can just contain all my questions to one post.
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Old 06-09-2009, 03:52 PM
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Re: Wastegate: Internal or External?

perffecttttt. that'll be a very nice turbo for an H22, should def reach your numbers.

*changed title for ya *
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2005 Stage2.5+ Subaru WRB STi : RzKar!
Ivey Tuned - Advan - Cobb - Rallispec - CP - Perrin - ACT - KillerB - Carillo - TurboXS - Defi - Innovate - Walbro - DeatschWerks - Feal - H&R - Alpine - Infiniti - Curt

2001 Kawasaki STX1100 D.I. - Sold!
2007 Sea-Doo RXT 215; ET 127 +3 S/C impeller, DIY 3" intake, DIY resonator delete/free flow exhaust, DIY oil catch can, Rule 500gph bilge pump


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But you need that scoop on the hood. Is it true that they're big enough to fit your lunch box and all your camera gear in it?
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Old 06-09-2009, 05:01 PM
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Re: Wastegate: Internal or External?

Quote:
Originally Posted by twokexlv6coupe View Post
perffecttttt. that'll be a very nice turbo for an H22, should def reach your numbers.

*changed title for ya *
ahh thank you!

Im gonna start looking at bottom end stuff now =)
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Old 06-09-2009, 05:28 PM
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Re: Dylan's Turbo Question Thread

You should maybe sticky this thread...lots of good info.
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Old 06-09-2009, 05:30 PM
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Re: Dylan's Turbo Question Thread

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Originally Posted by DJ Prelude View Post
You should maybe sticky this thread...lots of good info.
yehhh and its gonna keep gettin more useful

or at least sticky that link to the Garret Turbo Tech 101 ****, I understand SOOO much now after reading it. I have like a whole sheet full of math equations and **** that helped me decide what turbo.
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Old 06-10-2009, 01:21 PM
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Re: Dylan's Turbo Question Thread

Parts list!

Turbo
Manifold
FMIC
IC Piping
Wastegate
Downpipe
BOV
Fuel Pump
Fuel Injectors
Throttle Body
Pistons
Rods
Sleeves
Camshafts
Cam Gears
Springs
Retainers
ECU

I know I am missing things, my mind is blank right now.
Help me out everybody!
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Old 06-10-2009, 01:39 PM
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Re: Dylan's Turbo Question Thread

Fuel Rail & FPR, Valves, new clutch would prolly be nice, maybe IM.

im pretty much a complete noob when it comes to boost, so i could be completely wrong.
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Old 06-10-2009, 03:34 PM
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Re: Dylan's Turbo Question Thread

actually stock fuel rails are good to about 600hp. they're mostly just for bling.
FPR.... not really needed if you have the correct sized injectors, and a competent tuner. again, bling.

a stronger clutch and flywheel is def a must considering the power your looking for.

missing:
silicone couplers
t-bolt clamps (NOT HOSE CLAMPS!!!!!!! they'll blow off very easily)
oil lines
vacuum tubing
various fittings and adapters
dumptube (if running open wastegate)
gauges
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Ivey Tuned - Advan - Cobb - Rallispec - CP - Perrin - ACT - KillerB - Carillo - TurboXS - Defi - Innovate - Walbro - DeatschWerks - Feal - H&R - Alpine - Infiniti - Curt

2001 Kawasaki STX1100 D.I. - Sold!
2007 Sea-Doo RXT 215; ET 127 +3 S/C impeller, DIY 3" intake, DIY resonator delete/free flow exhaust, DIY oil catch can, Rule 500gph bilge pump


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But you need that scoop on the hood. Is it true that they're big enough to fit your lunch box and all your camera gear in it?
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Old 06-10-2009, 07:46 PM
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Re: Dylan's Turbo Question Thread

Get a nice LSD too :)
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Old 06-10-2009, 09:10 PM
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Re: Dylan's Turbo Question Thread

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Originally Posted by My97Prelude View Post
Parts list!

Turbo
Manifold
FMIC
IC Piping
Wastegate
Downpipe
BOV
Fuel Pump
Fuel Injectors
Throttle Body
Pistons
Rods
Sleeves
Camshafts
Cam Gears
Springs
Retainers
ECU

I know I am missing things, my mind is blank right now.
Help me out everybody!
I AM SO GLAD SOMEONE IS DOING THEIR HOMEWORK>
dont bother with camshafts... its a waste. you can easily do 300+ w/ a stock head and a built bottom. stock valve train/cams/gears etc. will get you there...when you start pushing for more boost/power then you will definitely need the valve train upgrade. nick has covered most angles already. one more thing, you need to find a good tuner and i strongly recommend HONDATA s300 w/ boost option and boost controller. put it this way i made over 300hp w/ a precision t3/to4e that was on its way out pushing 13psi. do it right the first time.
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Old 06-11-2009, 01:25 AM
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Re: Dylan's Turbo Question Thread

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Originally Posted by 1BadBB6 View Post
Fuel Rail & FPR, Valves, new clutch would prolly be nice, maybe IM.

im pretty much a complete noob when it comes to boost, so i could be completely wrong.
My new LuK Gold Performance clutch has maybe 5000 miles on it, I think it will hold up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twokexlv6coupe View Post
actually stock fuel rails are good to about 600hp. they're mostly just for bling.
FPR.... not really needed if you have the correct sized injectors, and a competent tuner. again, bling.

a stronger clutch and flywheel is def a must considering the power your looking for.

missing:
silicone couplers
t-bolt clamps (NOT HOSE CLAMPS!!!!!!! they'll blow off very easily)
oil lines
vacuum tubing
various fittings and adapters
dumptube (if running open wastegate)
gauges
Hmm yeah I was overlookin the small stuff for now. I will add this stuff to my list.

I don't plan on running an open wastegate, I would like it routed back into my exhaust.

At minimum I need boost gauge, AFR gauge, and oil pressure correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushiki View Post
Get a nice LSD too :)
I have the stock lsd option, that will probably do fine, I hope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bustr View Post
I AM SO GLAD SOMEONE IS DOING THEIR HOMEWORK>
dont bother with camshafts... its a waste. you can easily do 300+ w/ a stock head and a built bottom. stock valve train/cams/gears etc. will get you there...when you start pushing for more boost/power then you will definitely need the valve train upgrade. nick has covered most angles already. one more thing, you need to find a good tuner and i strongly recommend HONDATA s300 w/ boost option and boost controller. put it this way i made over 300hp w/ a precision t3/to4e that was on its way out pushing 13psi. do it right the first time.
Yeah I figured this forum thing out, if you know a little bit people would LOVE to help. If you know nothing they ban you =D

Should I maybe at least get some new cam gears? I gotta show some top end love somehow >.< lol

Ohhhh trust me I know an amazing tuner, he pretty much runs the town when it comes to imports.I was already planning on hondata s300. I just gotta find a p72 to send to em. Plus who DOESN'T want boost by gear? I mean c'mon!

UPDATED LIST:

Turbo - Garret GT2871R
Manifold
FMIC
IC Piping
Wastegate - TiAL 38 MM
Downpipe
BOV
Fuel Pump
Fuel Injectors
Throttle Body
Pistons
Rods
Sleeves
Cam Gears (maybe?)
ECU
Silicone Couplers
T-Bolt Clamps
Oil Lines
Vacuum Tubing
Assortment of Fittings and Adapters
Gauges
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Old 06-11-2009, 06:37 AM
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Re: Dylan's Turbo Question Thread

okay ... dont use a p72.. you need a p28.
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Old 06-11-2009, 10:21 AM
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Re: Dylan's Turbo Question Thread

which gauges u run is mostly preference, but the ones you listed are what most boosted guys run.
some debate that oil temp is more important than oil press, but i don't see it.
and if you do an AFR, make sure you get a WIDEBAND, not a narrowband. some good WB's are Innovate LC-1 or AEM UEGO.
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But you need that scoop on the hood. Is it true that they're big enough to fit your lunch box and all your camera gear in it?
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Old 06-11-2009, 10:49 AM
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Re: Dylan's Turbo Question Thread

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Originally Posted by Bustr View Post
okay ... dont use a p72.. you need a p28.
Can you explain why I would need a p28 compared to a p72?

Quote:
Originally Posted by twokexlv6coupe View Post
which gauges u run is mostly preference, but the ones you listed are what most boosted guys run.
some debate that oil temp is more important than oil press, but i don't see it.
and if you do an AFR, make sure you get a WIDEBAND, not a narrowband. some good WB's are Innovate LC-1 or AEM UEGO.
Alright, I will do that!
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Old 06-11-2009, 11:24 AM
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Re: Dylan's Turbo Question Thread

I'm seriously contemplating on a similar turbo setup for my stock h22 as well. I've been reading so many forums and threads that I'm almost lost on where to begin lol. So many different options...sometimes its hard to decide on what to go with.

What manifold are you going to run? I live in south louisiana and can't afford to give up A/C...I MAY sacrifice p/s, but if I can get around 300whp while keeping both, I'd like that.

My name is Keith btw
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Old 06-11-2009, 11:27 AM
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Re: Dylan's Turbo Question Thread

AFAIK, for that power goals, a log-type manifold should do alright
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Old 06-11-2009, 01:46 PM
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Re: Dylan's Turbo Question Thread

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Originally Posted by KHester84 View Post
I'm seriously contemplating on a similar turbo setup for my stock h22 as well. I've been reading so many forums and threads that I'm almost lost on where to begin lol. So many different options...sometimes its hard to decide on what to go with.

What manifold are you going to run? I live in south louisiana and can't afford to give up A/C...I MAY sacrifice p/s, but if I can get around 300whp while keeping both, I'd like that.

My name is Keith btw
Yeah it took me a long time to decide what I wanted to do with my car.

A log manifold should allow you to keep your a/c, I think depending on the downpipe.

I am not sure about power steering compatibility. I don't know if there is any manifold that will allow you to keep both unless its 100% custom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushiki View Post
AFAIK, for that power goals, a log-type manifold should do alright
Thats kind what I was thinking, for some reason there isn't too much discussion on h-t about manifolds.
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Old 06-11-2009, 04:52 PM
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Re: Dylan's Turbo Question Thread

the reason for a p28 to be used is less parameters to deal w/ .... makes it easier for tuning also does not need a knock sensor/iab/ or secondary intake runners. i also think they are easier to come buy.
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Old 06-11-2009, 05:34 PM
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Re: Dylan's Turbo Question Thread

When will you expect to see full boost with this turbo say at 8 psi? I think I read somewhere that their setup (GT28R...not sure of the mani) was fully spooled by 4100rpm...does that mean i'll be boosting a lot on the interstate if I'm goin 80mph with the cruise on? Or will I really have to open the throttle to make the boost build?

I'd hate to boost every time I go up an overpass...the rpms are pretty close to 4k at 80mph.
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Old 06-11-2009, 05:57 PM
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Re: Dylan's Turbo Question Thread

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Originally Posted by KHester84 View Post
When will you expect to see full boost with this turbo say at 8 psi? I think I read somewhere that their setup (GT28R...not sure of the mani) was fully spooled by 4100rpm...does that mean i'll be boosting a lot on the interstate if I'm goin 80mph with the cruise on? Or will I really have to open the throttle to make the boost build?

I'd hate to boost every time I go up an overpass...the rpms are pretty close to 4k at 80mph.
full boost is not hit unless your in WOT. 2nd to 4th gears are mostly where you can achieve full boost. on the highway dont use more then 25% throttle you dont want hit full boost in 5th gear.... the chances of creeping is greater. put it this way... have your tuner put a boost cut. thats the only way you can protect your motor from over boost. full boost is whatever your wastegate or controller is set to... most turbo start building boost just before 3000 rpm it is hard to say when you will actually hit full boost (what rpm) but its usually before 5000rpm.
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