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Why F- Series?

 
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Old 09-06-2008, 03:53 PM
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Why F- Series?

I often hear people saying how F- Series are better for boost. Is this only because they come sleeved stock? And then Would a sleeved H22 still be inferior? I'm considering buying an engine, building it, then putting it in the car when I don't have school everyday, so an F22B1 is one of my top picks right now.
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Old 09-06-2008, 04:52 PM
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Re: Why F- Series?

they don't come sleeved stock, per se. they just have iron cylinder walls as opposed to the H's FRM walls. when you sleeve an H, you replace the FRM with iron sleeves, and same with the F's, altho they are MUCH stronger sleeves and can handle much more pressure than stock sleeves.

its also safer to boost a motor with lower compression, 8.8:1 for F22's, because it is less likely to detonate, and destroy your engine.


if your gonna completely build a motor, go with an H22. you'll make much more power.
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Old 09-06-2008, 05:06 PM
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Re: Why F- Series?

geez twok. i was all excited b/c i thought i could mention it having something to do with lower compression but NOOO u gotta go steal a guys thunder

well said bro
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Old 09-06-2008, 07:15 PM
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Re: Why F- Series?

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Originally Posted by twokexlv6coupe View Post
they don't come sleeved stock, per se. they just have iron cylinder walls as opposed to the H's FRM walls. when you sleeve an H, you replace the FRM with iron sleeves, and same with the F's, altho they are MUCH stronger sleeves and can handle much more pressure than stock sleeves.

its also safer to boost a motor with lower compression, 8.8:1 for F22's, because it is less likely to detonate, and destroy your engine.


if your gonna completely build a motor, go with an H22. you'll make much more power.
Amen!! :pray:

I was gonna go with an F22 head but decided not to because I was building the rest of the engine, and found out that if I sleeve the H22 and lower the compression I get more power. The F22 stock beats the snot out of the H22 for boost capabilities tho - hands down no contest
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Old 09-06-2008, 10:39 PM
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Re: Why F- Series?

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Originally Posted by OEM~KaOs View Post
. The F22 stock beats the snot out of the H22 for boost capabilities tho - hands down no contest
Why? Im going to say thats misinformation there....

Your never going to get the same power out of the f22 vs the h22 boosted stock. To make up for the power differences, your going to have to run more boost.

Problems with running more boost. Hondas break ringlands under detonation pretty commonly and its the cause of ruining more than 50% of boosted stock motors.

The H series sleeves are stronger than the F series sleeves. Thats an argument you can have with me, but its irrelevant. Sadly, the iron sleeves are soft compared to the ceramic injected aluminum of the H series. Try machining them, you'll find that out quick. Also note how the honing marks are present on H series well after 100k miles often. This is information I bet you havent really read or thought about before.

Neither the H or F has sleeves break from boost as a common issue ever. Its always piston issues. So, why is the F series misconceived as being better stock? Well, its cheaper to run Forged pistons. They drop right in (honing is always good though), so its cheaper than sleeveing the H. Why sleeve the H? Lack of FRM compatible pistons (mahle has some now and so does Honda) and thicker Iron sleeves are actually stronger.

Honda having forged FRM compatible pistons... What? Oh wait.. The f20c out of the s2000 run forged and FRM.. They are also 87mm (same as h22). Why hasnt anyone done this yet? At $300+ a piston, its cheaper to go Mahle or sleeve over experimenting. Custom rod lengths and all that just add to complexities of the idea. Maybe we will see a setup like this soon enough. It will be the day many ignorant(not stupid, just misinformed) forum readers realize they have been dooped with false assumptions of the weak h sleeves...


Thank you... Come again.
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Old 09-06-2008, 11:08 PM
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Re: Why F- Series?

I think I would go with the h22; but, if you wanted to go in between, you could pick up an h23a1 or JDM f22b (160hp stock), sleeve it, and boost. You'd be saving a good bit of money right off the bat and you'd be replacing so much that I would hate to tear down a JDM H22a that I had just bought... maybe you could find a cheaper USDM h22a1? I saw an h block that was supposedly bored to 2.7L on youtube.


One thing is for sure, consider your tuning options (hondata, neptune, chrome, etc)... you might like eCtune...
here is the link to my weak NA tune... Dyno eCtuned P06/P28* ...not much, but this program can do some amazing stuff with boost...

more info on below cars here:http://www.blueridgemotorsports.com/.../Page1105.html
eCtune FWD HP Record Holder:
edit:pic removed.

Brian Crower KA24DE(T).040 Over-bore:


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Old 09-06-2008, 11:30 PM
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Icon8 Re: Why F- Series?

^^Wow.. I swear you work for this company...


Quit advertising 24/7 man...
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Old 09-06-2008, 11:39 PM
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Re: Why F- Series?

seriously. it is getting annoying.
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Old 09-07-2008, 12:29 AM
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Re: Why F- Series?

I didn't really see it as advertising seeing as 99% of people here are too far away and that makes the name irrelevant. I was extremely happy with the service, labor, prices, and I encourage people who need to ask some of the questions asked to look for some reputable shop in their area that can provide both advice and service. I don't have examples from other motorsports shops because I have not been to any and my experience is very limited. It would be unrealistic for me to think posting this would bring them any business; however, I can use it to show people the help I got from the pros. I happen to believe that eCtune is currently the best tuning rom, but this is based on very limited experience/research, and I am basically adopting the opinion of my "superiors"... that ignorance on my part is why I often include hondata, neptune, chrome, etc, as other options. There are 22 eCtune tuners in the US/Canada, and all I am attempting to do is let people know about my positive experience with the program.

So my point was:

If you boost/modify/or just want the most out of your engine, take it so someone with a dyno and have it tuned on any of many options of tuning software.
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Old 09-07-2008, 02:40 AM
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Re: Why F- Series?

Ok... How is this relevent to this thread?

The title of this thread is "why F series... "

This thread contains comments about the F vs H boosting information. Theres no mention of tuning because this isnt a build thread or any reason to mention anything like that. Im glad you found a shop local that takes care of you or gave you good service. I believe that was covered about 30x so far by you in every thread imaginable. Theres honestly no need for you to post such off topic information.

Im sorry for bashing you here, but its depressing to look at a thread that has potential to be ruined by off topic stuff... I was hoping to teach people something or even bring them in for a debate or ask questions. Thats typically how alot of knowledge is passed in forums. Honestly, who cares if theres a video on youtube that says 2.7L honda motor.. 1. It has nothing to do with this thread. 2. Its going to be achieved by a combination of bore and stroke. 3. The internet is full of BS.. Reference the current Ebay 50k prelude..

I do have an idea... Here, this picture is as useful as your info. Its not directed at you, but more meant to be humorous and entertaining.

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Old 09-07-2008, 06:43 AM
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Re: Why F- Series?

alright alright alright we get the point. lets take this one down a notch fellas. both of you made your point now lets get back on topic.


so let me ask a question or 2 here. I realize a softer metal can have effects on performance, however i thought another and what appears to be more relevant part of this issue was the compression differences and the F series being better b/c it was lower. How does this affect the performance of the two? does vtec alter the performance at all?
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Old 09-07-2008, 09:48 AM
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Re: Why F- Series?

I understand the concepts you bring up lilbluelude, but I still fail to understand how a stock F22 compared to a stock H22 is not as good for boost... It has a stronger build, therefore making it better for boosting.

Now - in this question I am referring to STOCK engines, not built ones. I would personally build an H22 head any day, more power, but this is just for stock purposes. I am just tryin to learn, lol
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:40 AM
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Re: Why F- Series?

man now I want some f20c pistons and a spare h22 block...

great info lilbluelude. I haven't put the time or the effort into learning much about the s2k or its powerplant. great post.
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:51 AM
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Re: Why F- Series?

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Originally Posted by Mdtdnb View Post
alright alright alright we get the point. lets take this one down a notch fellas. both of you made your point now lets get back on topic.


so let me ask a question or 2 here. I realize a softer metal can have effects on performance, however i thought another and what appears to be more relevant part of this issue was the compression differences and the F series being better b/c it was lower. How does this affect the performance of the two? does vtec alter the performance at all?
From another site, about turbo vtec (think it is accurate?):
"In a low pressure turbo system, the VTEC cam profiles are used to maintain the same torque curve shape as a N/A VTEC engine, only difference is the torque curve is higher. In a high pressure turbo system, the VTEC system is disabled because the high lift cam at high rpms do not work well with high boost. What happens is the valves are still open during compression stroke, so the boosted mixture escapes before the valves close, therefore robbing you of power at high rpms. Since the low rpm cam profile doesn't exhibit this behavior, VTEC is disabled to use the low rpm profile across the entire powerband. Of course, the proper scenario would be a custom ground cam for low rpm and high rpm turbo operation, with the VTEC system intact, to maximize power across the entire power band."

this site seems informative in regards to turbo: http://www.torquecars.com/tuning/adding-turbo.php

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Old 09-07-2008, 11:56 AM
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Re: Why F- Series?

one would think custom grind turbo h22 cams would be needed to have proper operation of all aspects of the motor considering the car was N/A from the factory.
As for their explanation of how and why, not 100% sure but it doesn't sound too far off.
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Old 09-07-2008, 12:05 PM
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Re: Why F- Series?

STOCK for STOCK, they are both good engines to boost; there is no clear-cut "better" or "stronger" engine of the two. they both have their pro's and cons, and as long as there are no corners cut when boosting them, they should both last a long time.
sure the F22 won't make as much power as an H22 with all the variables remaining constant, but it is an arguably "safer" motor to boost cuz the lower CR gives you more room for error with detonation.

if you're going to turbo a stock motor thats already in your car, just use whatever motor it is, they can all handle it (assuming its it good running condition). if you're going to BUY another motor to boost, whether you build it or not, i'd say get an H22 cuz you'll make more power.
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Old 09-07-2008, 02:53 PM
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Re: Why F- Series?

Aight, thanks for all the good info. I was told that the fact that the H22 is an open deck engine, it has some issues with boost. Has anyone experienced or seen this before?
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Old 09-07-2008, 04:05 PM
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Re: Why F- Series?

the h22a4(usdm 5th gens) are open decks and if i'm not mistaken the h2a1(usdm 4th gen s) are closed deck
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Old 09-07-2008, 05:33 PM
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Re: Why F- Series?

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Originally Posted by twokexlv6coupe View Post
STOCK for STOCK, they are both good engines to boost; there is no clear-cut "better" or "stronger" engine of the two. they both have their pro's and cons, and as long as there are no corners cut when boosting them, they should both last a long time.
sure the F22 won't make as much power as an H22 with all the variables remaining constant, but it is an arguably "safer" motor to boost cuz the lower CR gives you more room for error with detonation.

if you're going to turbo a stock motor thats already in your car, just use whatever motor it is, they can all handle it (assuming its it good running condition). if you're going to BUY another motor to boost, whether you build it or not, i'd say get an H22 cuz you'll make more power.

Great post. The compression ratios is the difference here. Not the weakness of the sleeves.


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Originally Posted by 2.2Lude View Post
the h22a4(usdm 5th gens) are open decks and if i'm not mistaken the h22a1(usdm 4th gen s) are closed deck

correct. H22a is also closed deck.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OEM~KaOs View Post
I understand the concepts you bring up lilbluelude, but I still fail to understand how a stock F22 compared to a stock H22 is not as good for boost... It has a stronger build, therefore making it better for boosting.
Not really. The build isnt any stronger. Theres less technology used and its easier to build and cheaper at the factory.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_y82 View Post
From another site, about turbo vtec (think it is accurate?):
"In a low pressure turbo system, the VTEC cam profiles are used to maintain the same torque curve shape as a N/A VTEC engine, only difference is the torque curve is higher. In a high pressure turbo system, the VTEC system is disabled because the high lift cam at high rpms do not work well with high boost. What happens is the valves are still open during compression stroke, so the boosted mixture escapes before the valves close, therefore robbing you of power at high rpms. Since the low rpm cam profile doesn't exhibit this behavior, VTEC is disabled to use the low rpm profile across the entire powerband. Of course, the proper scenario would be a custom ground cam for low rpm and high rpm turbo operation, with the VTEC system intact, to maximize power across the entire power band."

this site seems informative in regards to turbo: http://www.torquecars.com/tuning/adding-turbo.php

Heh... This isnt really good info again. Its kinda OT again. Its also inaccurate and really silly. Make a seperate post about it and I will explain it. Tired of sidetracking this thread.
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Old 09-08-2008, 07:46 AM
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Re: Why F- Series?

^I thought it may be important to consider the vtec aspect in case he does decide to boost the h22 (plus I was curious to know more about boosted vtec). The link has some info on the compression ratio and explains how lower compression gives you more wiggle room on a boost project... surely at least that is relevant... but I'll stop posting in turbo threads regardless.
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Old 09-08-2008, 08:17 AM
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Re: Why F- Series?

mr_y82 it is indeed relevant and i appreciate your post. I was always told vtec can cause issues when boosting hence me asking about it. thanks for the info
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