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no front sway bar for autox?

 
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Old 12-12-2010, 08:39 PM
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no front sway bar for autox?

i know there is a debate on whether larger front sway bars are better than the stock 25.4mm sway bar, but i heard an experienced driver say he runs no front sway bar in his ef for autox days. any advantages to this for the double wishbone suspension in preludes? or should i revert back to my oem front sway bar for turn-in?
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Old 12-12-2010, 09:06 PM
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Re: no front sway bar for autox?

new parts are always helpful. there is nothing wrong with stock. for autox- use a a after-market sway bar.....
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Old 12-12-2010, 10:09 PM
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Re: no front sway bar for autox?

What is your spring rates in the front&rear?
Do you have a LSD?
What Class?

When I was in GS with my OEM front bar, I had lots of inside tire wheel spin. Which I then got the Neuspeed front bar, and that fixed most of the wheel spin issue. I never had a problem with under-steer in my car while auto-xing. I liked to keep about 1-3 psi higher tire pressure in the rear, this gave me a good bit of lift off oversteer, with the limited about of adjustments I had in GS.

If you want better turn in, adjust your toe to about 1/16-1/8inch of toe out. Also, a stiff rear bar increases more over-steer once the car is set. Also stiffen up the front shocks, that will also increase turn in.

Most road racers will keep there front bars on, for more corner entry&exit stability. Auto-xers will take them out for better turn in. But if you take it out you better have some stiffer than OEM springs in the front, else you will cause huge amounts of body roll, which is bad for mid to corner exit.
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:40 AM
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Re: no front sway bar for autox?

What is your spring rates in the front&rear? not sure, skunk2 coilover sleeves
Do you have a LSD? nope, open diff
What Class? street touring (st)

I never had a problem with understeer in my car while auto-xing. I liked to keep about 1-3 psi higher tire pressure in the rear i don't necessarily have any understeer at the moment, feels fairly neutral but would like a bit more oversteer for the sharper corners. maybe i'll try that tire pressure trick next race day and see how it feels

If you want better turn in, adjust your toe to about 1/16-1/8inch of toe out. run negative toe front and rear?

Most road racers will keep there front bars on, for more corner entry&exit stability. Auto-xers will take them out for better turn in. But if you take it out you better have some stiffer than OEM springs in the front, else you will cause huge amounts of body roll, which is bad for mid to corner exit. thank you for the info daniel
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:35 AM
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Re: no front sway bar for autox?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eludeauthority View Post
If you want better turn in, adjust your toe to about 1/16-1/8inch of toe out. run negative toe front and rear?
iirc it is the rear that needs to be toe out.
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Old 12-13-2010, 09:13 AM
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Re: no front sway bar for autox?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eludeauthority View Post
i know there is a debate on whether larger front sway bars are better than the stock 25.4mm sway bar, but i heard an experienced driver say he runs no front sway bar in his ef for autox days. any advantages to this for the double wishbone suspension in preludes? or should i revert back to my oem front sway bar for turn-in?

...waiting for josh (hardknoxbb2) to chime in...
Personally i feel like just because it works for him in his EF doesn't mean it would work for us in preludes. I know this won't exactly answer your question but I hope it will build a more balanced car

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Old 12-13-2010, 09:57 AM
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Re: no front sway bar for autox?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaker View Post
iirc it is the rear that needs to be toe out.
Toe out in the front will help with inital turn in.
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:41 PM
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Re: no front sway bar for autox?

good find
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Old 12-13-2010, 07:12 PM
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Re: no front sway bar for autox?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eludeauthority View Post
good find
Thx bud. It was really informative to me loll Hoped it helped you out too
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Old 12-13-2010, 07:38 PM
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Re: no front sway bar for autox?

Word i heard this 2, that takin off ya front sway bar is good for wen doin auto-x.. i wouldnt do it tho, i would get an aftermarket sway bar,
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Old 12-13-2010, 10:14 PM
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Re: no front sway bar for autox?

Leave the front bar on. The trick of removing the front bar stems from a quirk in the SCCA Stock preparation rules: you can change the front bar, but not the rear. Normally, to reduce understeer/increase oversteer, you stiffen the rear suspension (i.e., heavier rear bar), but softening the front has the same effect, at the expense of overall front grip. The technique works pretty well on shorter wheelbase cars (like a Civic or a CRX), where the front is stiff enough to lift a rear wheel, so losing a little front grip doesn't hurt. Not worth it on a Prelude, though, and in a class like Street Touring where you're allowed to change the rear bar, that's a better option.

A little front toe-out will sharpen turn-in, but I've found it's not much better than zero, which has the benefit of not chewing up tires on a lowered car running negative camber. Rear toe-out makes the car unstable, which is a bad idea.

Dwend's the first person I know who's claimed success running higher tire pressures in the rear -- maybe an effect of the 4WS? I got quite good results running a high/low differential -- on a stock suspension, as much as 20 psi lower, but on modified cars, more often 5-10 psi. (Don't run that much differential pressure on a track at higher speeds -- 5 psi is fine there!)

Were I setting up a 4th gen ST, I'd run slightly stiffer springs over a good set of shocks (Koni Sports), a 25mm rear sway bar, and adjust by tinkering with the shock stiffness and tire pressures.
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:22 AM
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Re: no front sway bar for autox?

Just try it once during a first run or something and see if you like it. Just remove a endlink and it will be "off". One of my SMurF buddies did this to his civic when he was having bad under steer problems, mostly due to the 3 year old Azenis he was running.

I think 4ws had a lot to do with how my car acted. Also the Avon Tech R^A's 4 ply nylon side walls made things interesting.

ST is a difficult class (in my club anyway), a bunch of civics, 2 of which trophied at nationals this year.
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:31 AM
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Re: no front sway bar for autox?

thanks jamie and daniel for the solid information, good to have knowledgeable members on here

...one more thing, where do you guys find the list of modification allowances for each class? i searched through scca's website but there's way too much info there...
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:38 AM
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Re: no front sway bar for autox?

Well here is the rule book, I think ST starts on page 79. NOTE: This is the 2010 Rule book, I know there are a few changes in ST for 2011, mostly about Aero or lack of it, some found that running a front splitter helped more then previously thought.
http://www.scca.org/documents/Solo_R...solo_rules.pdf
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:49 AM
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Re: no front sway bar for autox?

nice nice thank you sir
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Old 12-14-2010, 03:40 AM
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Re: no front sway bar for autox?

There was a bloke on PO years ago who said he ran without a front swaybar; results were as mentioned above. The other thing he said though was that it made the car almost uncontrollable if you unsettled the car in anything but a straight line. Brake, lift off the gas, turn the wheel a little more, etc...all of them would cause the car to swap ends, and there was never anything he could do about it.
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Old 12-14-2010, 11:05 AM
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Re: no front sway bar for autox?

Daniel and Jamie have this shiz covered.

I think I made a mistake when I picked my spring rates but I will find out next year.
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