supercharged and turbo..together

[Myles88]

So im bored, and what do you guys think about supercharging and boosting a lude at the same time, lets say you dont have to worry about money, what would you guys do? Ive seen it done on sti's so i know its possible.

[00CDMLUDER]

its possible but i wouldn't do it

[hojemwod]

i think that would be awesome

[lilbluelude]

not worth the time and effort. Its a huge waste of money with very little benefits. Choose one or the other depending upon your goals and you will be happier. Its also a very very custom setup.

[Prelude818]

there are a few benefits.. but for the money i would not do it... its more common on VW's but they actually see results..

[Brash22]

VW have it on their new Golf GT. At low revs the supercharger runs and produces huge amounts of low end torque. Then at higher revs the clutch disengages the supercharger, the solenoids change the inlet manifold and the turbo blows all the air in.

The reason it typically doesn't work is generally it's done on the cheap so the turbo has to push the inlet charge through an intercooler, then an inactive supercharger before it gets into your combustion chambers.

I think a well thought out version of either would be a bit better.

[HksHaitian]

Is there enough space for a supercharger and turbo in ur engine bay?

[Myles88]

^^^ya there is plenty of room, its not like im goin to do..just seeing your guys thoughts on it, havnt seen it brought up yet.

I think it would work great for bigger turbos, they would spool a lot faster and you see all that hp a lot quicker, which i think would be really practical for track use.

[lilbluelude]

^^^ya there is plenty of room, its not like im goin to do..just seeing your guys thoughts on it, havnt seen it brought up yet.

I think it would work great for bigger turbos, they would spool a lot faster and you see all that hp a lot quicker, which i think would be really practical for track use.

Im really confused how it would be beneficial for track use.. Drag racing is about high RPM's in a Honda of any kind and launching is abt controlling the power output to the ground and theres no need for more power than you can attain with a turbo. You get that power as soon as you can handle it and its all go from there. For circuit racing, autocrossing, or any other type of road racing you spend all of your time in your power band and it wouldnt be useful to have a huge turbo that just spins tires to spool up and a supercharger or mid sized turbo will be producing plenty of power in the desired range.

Realistically, with a motor that already outputs plenty of power Naturally Aspirated its very pointless to add on two different forms of forced induction. If the car lacked bottom end severly and couldnt climb into a turbo's powerband in a reasonable time period i could see the use. The volkswagen motors described above are absolutely powerless out of boost and designed to be efficient in boost. This is not the case with a h22 or most Honda motors. Depending upon your goals, there is an ideal setup for each.

Now, I posted a very short reply as to it being very custom because the only supercharger readily available for the h22 and most hondas is the Jackson Racing. Its a roots type blower that will not work at all in combo with a turbo. Your going to need a centrifugal blower to even attempt this setup or an ingenious bypass on the roots style.

Space will be an issue if you decide to go big on the turbo because it starts taking up alot of space the bigger you go. You end up with larger piping everywhere and very little room for a blower somewhere down there as well. With relocation of the alternator and ditching the other accessories you should be able to squeeze one in there. I just dont see much point in it.

[Myles88]

What do you mean by there is no need for more power than you can attain by a turbo??!! You need all the power you can get to the wheels as soon as possible! Ya s/c / turbo wouldnt be the ideal way to do it, but that didnt make any sense.

As far as the type of supercharger to use, i think the roots would be ideal. Who said that you have to cut the use of the supercharger when the turbo finally spools, all the air is getting crammed in there anyway, it doesnt matter if the supercharger is still spinning.

So by using the roots, space would not be an issue. yes, obviously the bigger the turbo, the more space you take up, but if your going to slap one on anyway than it doesnt matter. The roots in no way interfers with a basic turbo set up.

Im not trying to back this up as a practical idea; its probably not worth the time and money just to have the power immediately, but i have seen it done and thought it was a pretty cool idea/ topic to bring up.

[twokexlv6coupe]

http://www.preludezone.com/showthread.php?t=1475
more trouble than its worth

[Myles88]

http://www.preludezone.com/showthread.php?t=1475
more trouble than its worth

Of course it is, but it would be pretty amazing not have to worry about turbo lag..

hey but cant a guy dream..?:confused:

[alex_belarus]

ehhh pfffft i dont think so not to great of an idea

[Brash22]

I've heard of guys using a shot of N2O as an anti-lag. Definatly a more workable solution than twin-charging.

[lilbluelude]

What do you mean by there is no need for more power than you can attain by a turbo??!! You need all the power you can get to the wheels as soon as possible! Ya s/c / turbo wouldnt be the ideal way to do it, but that didnt make any sense.

As far as the type of supercharger to use, i think the roots would be ideal. Who said that you have to cut the use of the supercharger when the turbo finally spools, all the air is getting crammed in there anyway, it doesnt matter if the supercharger is still spinning.

So by using the roots, space would not be an issue. yes, obviously the bigger the turbo, the more space you take up, but if your going to slap one on anyway than it doesnt matter. The roots in no way interfers with a basic turbo set up.

Im not trying to back this up as a practical idea; its probably not worth the time and money just to have the power immediately, but i have seen it done and thought it was a pretty cool idea/ topic to bring up.

Question... Have you ever driven a high hp boosted Honda? How about been down the strip in one? I sit on the line at 8psi and absolutely dont get how I would need anymore power and if that was the case how I couldnt just 'turn up the boost' per say. Its about traction and I feel you have no idea what your talking about. Ugh, its honestly pointless to argue with people who really dont understand. With no experience and no idea about the options available to accomplish certain goals its useless to argue with you, so I will just elaborate on why your information is severly invalid.

Do you understand how a roots style supercharger works? The turbine is contained within the intake manifold. It spins on a belt controlled by the engine spinning and rpms. It only spins as fast as the engine allows it to. The compressor wheel sees all the air that enters the engine. The jacson racing one produces large amounts of heat above its efficiency range. Im sure you already knew those basics, but I figureed I would review it before I explained what you overlooked. I will try to keep it simple and even use analogies you can relate to or help you visualize.

The problem is a supercharger becomes inefficient once it gets beyond its designed operating range. Imagine standing in line at a movie theatre for a Star Wars grand opening. It takes a long time and theres only so many lines you can wait in. When something becomes inefficient it outputs lots of heat because of the wasted energy. What do I mean? Well, once you put more air into the supercharger than it can compress it quits doing much aside from produce heat. After that point the turbo wont just take over because the air still must go through the superchargers compressor. Imagine putting a household water hose on a fire hydrant. Only so much can come out. Do I really need to go further? You end up smothering the turbo and producing air hotter than the engine itself. Wheres the benefits? You cannot make the high end hp the turbo is putting out with the restrictions and turbulence caused by the roots style of blower. You must have someway to bypass the supercharger in order to make much more power than the supercharger can make by itself. Thats a simple fact. The h22's JR blower is limited to a volumetric efficiency of of a gt35r at about 5psi. Yes, volumetric efficiency is a much more important factor than boost. Imagine trying to stuff an elephants penis into a household cat. Whats the point of having a big turbo that cant do anything?

Do you understand yet or do I need go on further? I can provide pictures, real technical explanations, calculated limitations, and even a picture of Chuck Norris calling you an idiot if nessecary.

[Brash22]

As lilblue said, you would have to shut down and bypass the supercharger to make it worth while. I can see there being a benifit of the low end torque provided by a supercharger, and the high end power from the turbo but only in certain applications. And drag racing isn't one of them.

And like has been said, it would be way too much effort for so little gain.

[Myles88]

Question... Have you ever driven a high hp boosted Honda? How about been down the strip in one? I sit on the line at 8psi and absolutely dont get how I would need anymore power and if that was the case how I couldnt just 'turn up the boost' per say. Its about traction and I feel you have no idea what your talking about. Ugh, its honestly pointless to argue with people who really dont understand. With no experience and no idea about the options available to accomplish certain goals its useless to argue with you, so I will just elaborate on why your information is severly invalid.

Do you understand how a roots style supercharger works? The turbine is contained within the intake manifold. It spins on a belt controlled by the engine spinning and rpms. It only spins as fast as the engine allows it to. The compressor wheel sees all the air that enters the engine. The jacson racing one produces large amounts of heat above its efficiency range. Im sure you already knew those basics, but I figureed I would review it before I explained what you overlooked. I will try to keep it simple and even use analogies you can relate to or help you visualize.

The problem is a supercharger becomes inefficient once it gets beyond its designed operating range. Imagine standing in line at a movie theatre for a Star Wars grand opening. It takes a long time and theres only so many lines you can wait in. When something becomes inefficient it outputs lots of heat because of the wasted energy. What do I mean? Well, once you put more air into the supercharger than it can compress it quits doing much aside from produce heat. After that point the turbo wont just take over because the air still must go through the superchargers compressor. Imagine putting a household water hose on a fire hydrant. Only so much can come out. Do I really need to go further? You end up smothering the turbo and producing air hotter than the engine itself. Wheres the benefits? You cannot make the high end hp the turbo is putting out with the restrictions and turbulence caused by the roots style of blower. You must have someway to bypass the supercharger in order to make much more power than the supercharger can make by itself. Thats a simple fact. The h22's JR blower is limited to a volumetric efficiency of of a gt35r at about 5psi. Yes, volumetric efficiency is a much more important factor than boost. Imagine trying to stuff an elephants penis into a household cat. Whats the point of having a big turbo that cant do anything?

Do you understand yet or do I need go on further? I can provide pictures, real technical explanations, calculated limitations, and even a picture of Chuck Norris calling you an idiot if nessecary.

First of all, My prelude is supercharged. Yes, i have driven multiple high boosted hondas, some including, 12psi gs-r in a civic, 10 psi f20 in a civic..i also did 75 percent of the cars. I know about the traction issues that comes with a high horsepower engine. ONCE AGIAN, i DONT find this as a rational idea. But you seem to ge missing that little point and continually wasting your time with info i know 90 percent of. But the question wasnt was who could bash the idea, i was hoping to recieve some positive opinion about ways to make it possibly work.

[mizlude]

Now, I posted a very short reply as to it being very custom because the only supercharger readily available for the h22 and most hondas is the Jackson Racing. Its a roots type blower that will not work at all in combo with a turbo. Your going to need a centrifugal blower to even attempt this setup or an ingenious bypass on the roots style.



tell that to the twin charged mini's

[deafy]

a centrifugal SC and turbo combo seems more efficient than JRSC and turbo.

[93[BB4]Prelude]

Question... Have you ever driven a high hp boosted Honda? How about been down the strip in one? I sit on the line at 8psi and absolutely dont get how I would need anymore power and if that was the case how I couldnt just 'turn up the boost' per say. Its about traction and I feel you have no idea what your talking about. Ugh, its honestly pointless to argue with people who really dont understand. With no experience and no idea about the options available to accomplish certain goals its useless to argue with you, so I will just elaborate on why your information is severly invalid.

Do you understand how a roots style supercharger works? The turbine is contained within the intake manifold. It spins on a belt controlled by the engine spinning and rpms. It only spins as fast as the engine allows it to. The compressor wheel sees all the air that enters the engine. The jacson racing one produces large amounts of heat above its efficiency range. Im sure you already knew those basics, but I figureed I would review it before I explained what you overlooked. I will try to keep it simple and even use analogies you can relate to or help you visualize.

The problem is a supercharger becomes inefficient once it gets beyond its designed operating range. Imagine standing in line at a movie theatre for a Star Wars grand opening. It takes a long time and theres only so many lines you can wait in. When something becomes inefficient it outputs lots of heat because of the wasted energy. What do I mean? Well, once you put more air into the supercharger than it can compress it quits doing much aside from produce heat. After that point the turbo wont just take over because the air still must go through the superchargers compressor. Imagine putting a household water hose on a fire hydrant. Only so much can come out. Do I really need to go further? You end up smothering the turbo and producing air hotter than the engine itself. Wheres the benefits? You cannot make the high end hp the turbo is putting out with the restrictions and turbulence caused by the roots style of blower. You must have someway to bypass the supercharger in order to make much more power than the supercharger can make by itself. Thats a simple fact. The h22's JR blower is limited to a volumetric efficiency of of a gt35r at about 5psi. Yes, volumetric efficiency is a much more important factor than boost. Imagine trying to stuff an elephants penis into a household cat. Whats the point of having a big turbo that cant do anything?

Do you understand yet or do I need go on further? I can provide pictures, real technical explanations, calculated limitations, and even a picture of Chuck Norris calling you an idiot if nessecary.


Dammm that was like a college lecture haha... anyways. IMO this isnt worth it, if you had alot of torque all the way through the gear, it would make it even harder for our FWD cars to get grip, its bad enough with just a turbo.

[lilbluelude]

First of all, My prelude is supercharged. Yes, i have driven multiple high boosted hondas, some including, 12psi gs-r in a civic, 10 psi f20 in a civic..i also did 75 percent of the cars. I know about the traction issues that comes with a high horsepower engine. ONCE AGIAN, i DONT find this as a rational idea. But you seem to ge missing that little point and continually wasting your time with info i know 90 percent of. But the question wasnt was who could bash the idea, i was hoping to recieve some positive opinion about ways to make it possibly work.


Well.. proving my point once again. Lesson learned here: Owning something doesnt make you an expert on it or even understand how it works. WE gave you positive opinions and advice upon design as well before you decided upon a poor plan of attack. Then, we told you about the shortcomings in your ideas and where to fix it. You ignored that and thought little of it. So, then we explained in detail and had to actually slap you around a bit over the internet. I may have led the way, but I wasnt the only one informing you. Thanks for your time. Please accept my apologies for trying to help you out. I'll just bash you from now on because you are unwilling to accept you can be wrong and/or not completely understand everything out in this vast world or universe.




tell that to the twin charged mini's


I would argue with you and fully explain why I dont need to tell the twin charged mini's anything... But, its clear your on the same page as myles88 with the understanding of how a closed system with a turbocharger and/or supercharger works. Its all in the design of the system. THEY can and do work together when done right and we covered whats needed for it to be a reality several times.

If you didnt read the entire thread and just were browsing I am sorry for coming off negatively. It just appears your reply is to me with the quote from myself in your reply and are trying to support myles88 side which is just misdguided and unimformed. That should about cover it.

a centrifugal SC and turbo combo seems more efficient than JRSC and turbo.

Agreed in our instance. If there was a readily available bypass (one way valve preferably) for a roots style blower, it would be an option. But, I would still agree in price efficiency and simplicity that a centrifugal charger would be much better.

Dammm that was like a college lecture haha... anyways. IMO this isnt worth it, if you had alot of torque all the way through the gear, it would make it even harder for our FWD cars to get grip, its bad enough with just a turbo.

Thanks. Agreed.

[Mdtdnb]

lilbluelude...freakin hilarious. I think you should post the Chuck Norris pic just for more fuel to your argument! :haha:

[90Lude2.0s]

little off topic but not to bad
this kid in my auto shop had a jetta gli totally stock and he slaps a turbo in it with no intercooler runnin 6 lbs of boost..
isnt it gonna have some back pressure with no exhaust and not gonna get enough air with out any type of intercooler/cold air intake

[lilbluelude]

little off topic but not to bad
this kid in my auto shop had a jetta gli totally stock and he slaps a turbo in it with no intercooler runnin 6 lbs of boost..
isnt it gonna have some back pressure with no exhaust and not gonna get enough air with out any type of intercooler/cold air intake

I really agree its not on the same topic, but appreciate that you realize your threadjacking by asking. Since this threads done for anyways, and you obviously realize you dont know everything about boosted applications I will kindly reply.

This kid will be perfectly fine running a turbo at 6lbs of boost w/o an intercooler and/or exhaust for that matter. I would be a little concerned about his increased fueling demands if he doesnt have it tuned at all, but thats a different aspect than what your concerned about. A turbo doesnt need a cold air intake because the inlet for air is located on the turbo itself. Its the turbine you can actually see as long as theres no intake on it. You can run an intake and there are benefits from doing so(colder air, less turbelence), but its not 100% nessecary and will not cause issues.

Now, an intercooler does not take in air (which is what I gather you presume). Its job is to take the compressed air that the turbo creates and cool it back off to ambient temperatures on the way to the engine itself. Its a closed system from the turbo to the motor which is why you see all the pipes. At 6 psi you generate plenty of heat, but its surely not enough to destroy your motor(just enough to blow hot air like a hair dryer into your engine). Cooler air is more dense and makes more power, not to mention keeps the engine a bit cooler. I would reccomend your buddy run a small intercooler, but it wont kill him not too as long as his turbo is about the size i think it is... as big as his penis.. I mean, small....:eek: :tongue:

Last, no exhaust isnt a bad thing for a turbo. No Exhaust actually means no back pressure and its easier for the turbo to spin. No exhaust is bad for the COPS though... and the environment, etc.


Is this what you were looking for?

[BadMofo]

^I have a feeling that when he said "No exhaust", he really means stock exhaust. And that's why he's asking if it would have "some back pressure".

[90Lude2.0s]

yea i meant keeping the stock exhaust on there
but yeah besides that it pretty much summed it up
and sorry about "threadstealing"
i shoulda posted a new topic

[Myles88]

not worth the time and effort. Its a huge waste of money with very little benefits. Choose one or the other depending upon your goals and you will be happier. Its also a very very custom setup.

not to bring this back from the dead but just wanted to say..

ya real positive first comment ^^^^^
way to turn it around on yourself

And i did accept the fact when i started the thread that it would be a custom setup, difficult to be done, and not efficient. And obviously you can read very well because just in about every thread i stated "yes this would not be efficient or the greatest of ideas.." blah blah blah..but you still continued to put me down like i was being an ignorant moron and wouldnt believe it

But thats not what i asked in the thread topic........did I? Ya didnt think so...

Obviously you are knowlegable, and i appreciated SOME of your input, but you play off as a know it all, as quoted from one of your previous posts:

" you obviously realize you dont know everything about boosted applications."

way to make the kid look like an idiot, he probably already knows that, dont ya think?

...i dont respect that...

[Myles88]

So how about if i say this maybe this will get through your thick head...

"Oh great wisdom of forced induction, i purely kneel down to your knowledge and believe that it would never work even though respected car companies are using the idea. I find it to be a totally unethical idea and would never even think twice about doing it."

Wow to think if i would have just said that instead of:
"ONCE AGIAN, i DONT find this as a rational idea"
"Im not trying to back this up as a practical idea; its probably not worth the time and money just to have the power immediately, but i have seen it done and thought it was a pretty cool idea/ topic to bring up."

[mcimo]

Dang this thread is going straight to heck as fast as a twin charged civic. <-- (LOL just trying to lighten the mood :biggrin: )

[Brash22]

And i did accept the fact when i started the thread that it would be a custom setup, difficult to be done, and not efficient.

Then why go the extra expense and effort? Seems like a lot of work just to be different.

[00CDMLUDER]

Then why go the extra expense and effort? Seems like a lot of work just to be different.

exactly! if if not gonna be efficient why would you wanna do it?

[Myles88]

So im bored, and what do you guys think about supercharging and boosting a lude at the same time, lets say you dont have to worry about money, what would you guys do? Ive seen it done on sti's so i know its possible.

well let me quote myself here..^^^

the whole idea was a "what if" question...

NOT a "im going to waste my time doing this so what do you guys think" question...

My original post meant, lets say you have unlimited money...that means you can pay someone to waste time for you, unlimited resouces, it also means its just another project.
So the question meant, "if you guys where bored and had unlimited money and just for the hell of it you wanted to try it out".....

I feel like this whole thread goes back to the whole thread about people reading the original post..

[00CDMLUDER]

if you unlimited money and resources then i say go for it! i would also get a cf dash and tedds floor mats!

[Myles88]

haha, those are some pretty nice floor mats