How to build a N/A H22

[THE ONE]

How to build a successful N/A h22

First thing is first, we need understand that N/A is not cheap. To make decent power you need to
"Mad Cash" to get anywhere n/a. I would start with the basics:
Intake, exhaust, and Header.

Header - Lets get one thing straight lol. If you have a 4 cylinder engine you do not have headers,
you have a header. Now back on topic. Up until last year I never knew how important having a good
header would do to my performance. Now let me tell you, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that
you need an RMF, SMSP, Kteller or hytech header because for some people it cost a little too much for them.
I will agree that you will make way better gains with these and while must people view them as a
necessity to building a strong h22 monster, I'm here to tell you that you still can build a strong motor.
RMF, SMSP, Kteller, or... and this is a big OR, If you can find somebody that can make one for you
it works out a lot cheaper. Lucky for me there is a shop right down the street that makes them and I
have a friend that specializes in fab work.

Why not to go with DC? IMO.... **** DC and AEM. I'm sure some of you have read some of my posts on
pp.com about their intakes and header for our h22 cars. POS's IMHO. While must people look for
good mid-range gains with their header, DC gives you a little if any gains at the peak of your
power curve. 1-3hp.

Bottom line: If you want to play you have to pay. DC won't cut it.

Intake - An intake is an intake. The filter will make a little difference for you. As stated above I don't
like AEM intakes because they are mass produced and other intake manufactorers like injen spend time and
money fabricating a nice intake for our cars.

Exhaust - This is a very vital part of your build to compliment your header and higher compression (will be discussed later) you'll be running. Well what size piping is ideal? I would go with 2.5inch piping with the inlet/outlet of the muffler to be the same inches or a little bigger. Apex'i,greddy,Thermal, custom etc are all good. Please stay away from ebay guys :) .

Cams and Valvetrain - Cams are very, very, VERY important on the kind of build you want. If you want good mid-range power, then JUN, Crower make great cams for this with Crower's stage 1 and JUN stage 1. If you want more peak power (like myself). Skunk2 starts shining in the higher rpms. Some argue that skunk2 cams are specifically for "B" series engines because you can make them rev all the way up to 10K. Yes this is true. But if you want to more power up top, I would go with the skunk2's for that same reason. You want to raise the redline anyways righ? :)

The valvetrain has a lot to do with reving higher to gain more power. If you get stage 1 cams you it is not necessary for you to change your valves/ valve springs etc. though it is recommended. If you go any higher than stage1 cams then its a must to upgrade your valvetrain.

Compression - Well some might be wondering what does my compression have to do with anything? It has a lot to do with everything. IF you raise the compression higher, that means more air is coming into the engine. Thus meaning you need more fuel. Which equals to more power. On pump gas I wouldn't go any higher than 12.5:1 compression. Also I wouldn't go any higher than 12:1 compression pistons. Higher compression equals more power with a an increase in the chance for denotation. Tuning will be important.

Pistons - What kind of pistons would you recommend? Well, start off with the ones that have the same signiture as the H22 blocks FRM pistons. There are two companies that offer them, Mahle and JUN. Mahle offers an 11:1 compression piston While JUN offfers it a little higher than 11:1 (can't find where I read how high it goes). Other than that you have to get forged pistons and you have to sleeve the block and get stronger rods.

Tuning - This is a very touchy thing. I've come to find out that tuners are very bias with what type of setups they want to tune. Some prefere hondata, some prefere uberdata, some like crome, some like Neptunes(New hot thing).

I will say this: Hondata has been proven year after year to gain power without any major problems or glitches. If you need to know more about them visit their website. "I can't do everything for guys hehehe" Website: http://www.hondata.com/

Uberdata and crome are free softwares. They mimic hondata but there is a set back. They have glitches. In fact they have several glitches with their programming. They do get the job done. They are also cheaper than hondata and are highly recommended if your on a budget.

VAFC = v-tec air flow correction. This tunes your air/fuel and supposingly change your vtec cross-over point. I'm here to tell you that NO it doesn't. What a vafc does, is tap into the sensors with the settings you give the vafc. Then the cars ecu make the changes it sees necessary to accommodate these changes in the reading of the sensors. So the vafc only manipulates the sensors that communicate with the ecu, not the ecu itself. It doesn't change **** on your car. It does make power however so its not at all a waste of money. If have the typical I/H/E pulleys etc, then this tuning device will do just fine.

Same applies for the SAFC and SAFCII.

The greddy e-manage (blue box) falls under the same category as the vafc and safc.

Neptunes - I don't know much about but I'm researching it as you read. It supposely the best.

AEM EMS. This is the best product that aem has on the market. In fact its the only thing aem I would buy. I wouldn't get it unless I go boosted and a full engine built. While it might be the best tuning setup, it is very expensive and tuners for it are very pricey.

I'm leaving some off the tuning devices off because I'm about to cover a very touchy topic.

OBDII to OBDI: Whats the difference? Well in a not shell obdII is a learning ecu that eventually take your car back to the stock settings. So in an essence, it detunes the car. obdI doesn't do that. It is the more tuner friendly ecu. obdII ecu's for honda starts from 1996 and up. So if you have a 96' and up honda and you want to uptimize your tuning gains I suggest switching to obdI.

So Ace what about the automatic (****matic as some like to call it)? What can we do for tuning? Well, you have the vafc and safc that can tune your ride. Also, the best tuning device for the auto's is the greddy E-management Ultimate (black box). This is the best tuning device for the automatic IMHO. I'll copy and pastes my write up on it from pp.com:

Greddy E-Manage Ultimate (Thanks to TopEndLude)
E-Management Ultimate does everything that the first e-management does which is the same as the vafc for Apexi. Which is fine tune air, fuel and also have the ability to change the vtec change-over-point.

What separates it from the vafc:
1. The ability to tune both air/fuel and ignition timing
2. The ability to switch back and forth from two preset tuning maps (street and racing maps for example.)
3. There are maps for each individual cylinder to tune both air/fuel and ignition. (so it seems it can even tune ITBs :)).
4. It has the ability to convert injection and ignition systems.
5. There are also built in boost, rev and speed limiter cutoff.
6. Various so called Smooth operating maps that adjust throttle, acceleration, water temperature, intake temp., anti-engine stall, idle and yes Auto transmission shift points for those auto tranny vehicles.

The E-management Ultimate is a nice system for those who are on a tight budget and want the best bang for there buck. Hondata cost can scale upwards towards $1,000. Whereas EMU’s suggested price is $680. Retail I’ve seen it on ebay for $480 with free shipping but that’s ebay.
So basically its it does everything that you would need it to do.

Now.. How do you get all this power to ground? Well, you would need upgrade your transmission. Clutch, flywheel, pressure plate etc.. Then you have a serious setup going.

ECU's Well you're probably asking what ecu can/should I get when I switch to OBDI right? Well if you have a h22 then you can get any vtec ecu such as: p13,p15 which are prelude ecu's,p28,p30,p61.
Now for the one you should try your hardest to get your hands on P72. Why? Because it has the ability to tune the IAB's.

So why not just use a prelude ecu you ask? Well, you can't get all the options you would get with lets say a p28 or p72. The p13 and 15 are limited to what they can do. The most common ones are the p28 and p72. If you don't want to worry about your iabs then get your hands on the p72.

What is the purpose of tuning? To smooth out your power curve. to make sure the car is operating in a safe perameter. To clean up the air/fuel ratio. Oh and yes! To make power. Guys don't neglect tuning its very important. I can't stress that enough.

Now Since this is a prelude site I'll go ahead and list the ecu's for the h23s that can be used aswell since the h23s do not have vtec. I know some might be wondering.
ECUs:
PO6, PR4, P74 and P75. Remember, if your car came out after 1995 its obd2 and you need to swtich to obd1 to make the most power. If you are already obd1 then you can use your ecu but you will be limited to what you can use/place on it.


Thanks for reading,
TEL A.K.A. Ace


P.S. I will be adding more to this thread. Also feel free to add things as well. When giving information people tend to be a little bias. So if I've left anything out please let me know. I might have done it unconciously.

[THE ONE]

Damn no comments or questions? I can't be that good... or wait! I guess I didn't make any sense huh?

[hotrod]

I guess I didn't make any sense huh?
bingo.
































:p j/p. it's a good write up. there... that's my comment.

[Qnz92Lude]

Good write up, Im going to need this when i do my swap since there is still alot i have to learn. Thanx Top End

[team123luder]

You should also inform that the stock intake manifold wont cut it without modification, or just get a different setup..... TB's can bottle neck but only when you want 200+whp

Also mention that a port and polish wont give you 50hp.... that cams by themselves wont give you 100hp.... Most work done to the head except the cams will give you a better power curve and much much better throttle response.

and for a 200+whp H22 build up a 3" exhuast would be best that is if you don't need midrange....


my two cents... but eh then again I own a 3rd gen.

[THE ONE]

You should also inform that the stock intake manifold wont cut it without modification, or just get a different setup..... TB's can bottle neck but only when you want 200+whp

Also mention that a port and polish wont give you 50hp.... that cams by themselves wont give you 100hp.... Most work done to the head except the cams will give you a better power curve and much much better throttle response.

and for a 200+whp H22 build up a 3" exhuast would be best that is if you don't need midrange....


my two cents... but eh then again I own a 3rd gen.

I"m not done yet... Intake manifolds is something I'm still researching. I'm not a fan of boring out when you can just upgrade. So I'm still trying to figure out whats best from whats not. I've only experienced with skunk2 intake mani. Lost of people don't like it but I've yet to see a dyno of a nother manifold to compete with it. Still searching:cool:

[team123luder]

I've heard bad things about the skunk2 manifold. Most like "bloxracing" is that correct? Don't know much about H22's yet. But once I get mine I'll post dynos!!!

[Qnz92Lude]

wha about the the euro r manifold ive heard its superior to many after market ones.

[THE ONE]

wha about the the euro r manifold ive heard its superior to many after market ones.

euro r Manifold is good. It does require some modifications in order to fit however.

I've heard bad things about the skunk2 manifold. Most like "bloxracing" is that correct? Don't know much about H22's yet. But once I get mine I'll post dynos!!!

the skunk2 mani is pretty much a waste of money...

[THE ONE]

Added ecu information...

[team123luder]

Isn't the P75 ecu a Type R ecu?

[THE ONE]

Isn't the P75 ecu a Type R ecu?

its from a 95 LS integra

[FLaVaH 0wnz]

thanx for the write up man, cleared ALOT of questions that i had

[THE ONE]

from what I'm gathering the greddy emanagement ulimate is garbage guys. Stay away from it...

[Si Speed]

What about HKS?

[95h22a1turbo]

"ECU's Well you're probably asking what ecu can/should I get when I switch to OBDI right? Well if you have a h22 then you can get any vtec ecu such as: p13,p15 which are prelude ecu's,p28,p30,p61.
Now for the one you should try your hardest to get your hands on P72. Why? Because it has the ability to tune the IAB's.

So why not just use a prelude ecu you ask? Well, you can't get all the options you would get with lets say a p28 or p72. The p13 and 15 are limited to what they can do. The most common ones are the p28 and p72. If you don't want to worry about your iabs then get your hands on the p72.

What is the purpose of tuning? To smooth out your power curve. to make sure the car is operating in a safe perameter. To clean up the air/fuel ratio. Oh and yes! To make power. Guys don't neglect tuning its very important. I can't stress that enough.

Now Since this is a prelude site I'll go ahead and list the ecu's for the h23s that can be used aswell since the h23s do not have vtec. I know some might be wondering.
ECUs:
PO6, PR4, P74 and P75. Remember, if your car came out after 1995 its obd2 and you need to swtich to obd1 to make the most power. If you are already obd1 then you can use your ecu but you will be limited to what you can use/place on it." -Topendlude



P72's from GSR's, not exactly sir, mostly D,B,H,F etc... afermarket motors wanna use P28. p72 still have some restriction codes since it was from 93+... now p28's came out of ex any civic sohc v or b16. which it is not restrict at all you can do more things than p72's. more likely if you wanna use chrome, neptune or hondata of course. P28's more recommand than p72s. but goodwrite up on the all motor build. basic things gets you more horsepower. jsut like tuning alot.

[BB615]

P72's from GSR's, not exactly sir, mostly D,B,H,F etc... afermarket motors wanna use P28. p72 still have some restriction codes since it was from 93+... now p28's came out of ex any civic sohc v or b16. which it is not restrict at all you can do more things than p72's. more likely if you wanna use chrome, neptune or hondata of course. P28's more recommand than p72s. but goodwrite up on the all motor build. basic things gets you more horsepower. jsut like tuning alot.


WTF are you talking about? a p28 cannot tune the butterflies that are in the intake manifold of the h22. The only two engines that came with dual runners are the h22 and the gsr b18. you can use a p28 but it can't tune the butterflies (runners). The guy that did this writeup knew exactly what he is talking about when he made this thread. He actually did some research. You might want to try it sometime.

Basic things do not get you horsepower from a h22. otherwise DC headers would be the Shyt for our cars. Get my drift?

Don't get me wrong with running a p28. it does what its suppose to do in the tuning aspects of things. But some people want to keep there secondary runners. that's why you would use a p72 or a p13 ecu when tuning the h22. Yes they are limited to what they can do.... but still...

[Prelude13]

^^You are wrong.

B20a5 PK2 intake manifolds also had dual runners.
You sure sound like you know things; then again, with your newb threads, you dont.
Chill, play nice, dont ruin a great thread or i'll start handing out asses.

...

and you cannot just use any Honda ECU with an h22.
Please, one must burn in h22 basemaps and "chip" the p28 ECU.
A chipped ECU or use an aftermarket (as 95Turboh22a1 said) EMS, like Hondata, Crome, Megasquirt etc. Neptune isn't even out yet.

People relax.

[95h22a1turbo]

WTF are you talking about? a p28 cannot tune the butterflies that are in the intake manifold of the h22. The only two engines that came with dual runners are the h22 and the gsr b18. you can use a p28 but it can't tune the butterflies (runners). The guy that did this writeup knew exactly what he is talking about when he made this thread. He actually did some research. You might want to try it sometime.

Basic things do not get you horsepower from a h22. otherwise DC headers would be the Shyt for our cars. Get my drift?

Don't get me wrong with running a p28. it does what its suppose to do in the tuning aspects of things. But some people want to keep there secondary runners. that's why you would use a p72 or a p13 ecu when tuning the h22. Yes they are limited to what they can do.... but still...
i got this ****. you said p72 and p13 to tune the h22? WRONG!!!! WRONG!! SIR YOU JUST LOST MILLION DALLORS!!! with P28"chipped" you could prolly get best performace on a h22 read again, compread hand again, and think again b4 u say somthen enoff said. or you wanna go make a diff thread and have an argument.

ps-Neptune is going to be same as hondata s300 but i think it might be better w/ nos control!!!

[95h22a1turbo]

oh another one!! H22 is never limited.

[98vtec]

p72 is "better" than the p28. The p28 is just cheap and can be modded to control the IAB's. But out of the box, the p72 is going to be the best oriented ecu for the h22 since it has a knock board and can control EGR, IAB's...etc

i have no complaints with my p28. and for the record....neptune > hondata it just sucks that its so hard to get it.

[95h22a1turbo]

p72 is "better" than the p28. The p28 is just cheap and can be modded to control the IAB's. But out of the box, the p72 is going to be the best oriented ecu for the h22 since it has a knock board and can control EGR, IAB's...etc

i have no complaints with my p28. and for the record....neptune > hondata it just sucks that its so hard to get it.
ehh, i wouldn't really say that. You know P28's are amazinly great. wit amount u gonna put on p72 and work same as p28's ... plus hondata, and neptune recommand the damn P28!! and yes hondata gets lil confusin

[Showaski39]

Heres a header test that was done. The test car was a '03 Scion TC with 33K miles on it. The only modification done to the car is a Greddy Evo2 axle-back exhaust. These guys tested three different aftermarket headers for the TC (DC Sports, Alphawerks, and Megan Racing).

DC Sports Ceramic - $400.90 MSRP
Megan Racing Stainless - $279.95 MSRP
Alphawerks Stainless - $600 MSRP

Read the rest here (http://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=82724&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=8f018ff66fabf0f40d83cf546776b5cc).

The reason i'm pointing this out is because TopEndLude mentions investing in a header like Hytech. For those that don't know, the Hytech header for the '92-'96 Prelude cost $1,200 FOR A HEADER!

Well heres a test between two very affordable headers and one very expensive header. The differences between the three are very small. Infact the Megan header actually did better than the DC in the higher RPM's. My point is, I don't think its worth spending $600-$1,200 dollars on a header that is going to perform nearly the same as a header that may cost you $150-$300. If anything the Greddy header is a pretty good header for its price too (around $380-$480).

[98vtec]

Heres a header test that was done. The test car was a '03 Scion TC with 33K miles on it. The only modification done to the car is a Greddy Evo2 axle-back exhaust. These guys tested three different aftermarket headers for the TC (DC Sports, Alphawerks, and Megan Racing).

DC Sports Ceramic - $400.90 MSRP
Megan Racing Stainless - $279.95 MSRP
Alphawerks Stainless - $600 MSRP

Read the rest here (http://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=82724&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=8f018ff66fabf0f40d83cf546776b5cc).

The reason i'm pointing this out is because TopEndLude mentions investing in a header like Hytech. For those that don't know, the Hytech header for the '92-'96 Prelude cost $1,200 FOR A HEADER!

Well heres a test between two very affordable headers and one very expensive header. The differences between the three are very small. Infact the Megan header actually did better than the DC in the higher RPM's. My point is, I don't think its worth spending $600-$1,200 dollars on a header that is going to perform nearly the same as a header that may cost you $150-$300. If anything the Greddy header is a pretty good header for its price too (around $380-$480).

a scion doesnt have an h22. You cant apply any of that information to an h22.

beyond that, how bout doing a test between headers on an h22 with cams and some compression? You'll see a LARGE difference between a Dc header and a custom spec'd header.

[Showaski39]

a scion doesnt have an h22. You cant apply any of that information to an h22.

The point was that the less expensive headers hold thier own too.

beyond that, how bout doing a test between headers on an h22 with cams and some compression? You'll see a LARGE difference between a Dc header and a custom spec'd header.

Maybe someone should do that ...

[THE ONE]

showaski 98vtec is right. you can't compare a scion's engine to h22. the h22 doesn't see gains as easy as most other engines out there. I think the point your trying to make is that the dc is better than stock. Which is true but it's not better by much. It's the same size piping as your stock piping. so in essence it's a waste of money.

So when 98vtec says you can't apply that information to the h22 he is literally correct.

[THE ONE]

ehh, i wouldn't really say that. You know P28's are amazinly great. wit amount u gonna put on p72 and work same as p28's ... plus hondata, and neptune recommand the damn P28!! and yes hondata gets lil confusin

Both ecu's are good (p28 and p72). The p28 does cannot read the secondary runners but the p72 does. Which is why the p72 is better for the h22. Also both ecu's have the same support from hondata. The reason they recommend the p28 is because those can be found everywhere. But a obdI gsr ecu is harder to come by.

[Sener]

Sooo sounds real good. I just want to know, I wanna build my engine n/a to the top but with my car still being a daily driver. Can i put a turbo after building this n/a monster if i want to add turbo???

[Showaski39]

I think the point your trying to make is that the dc is better than stock. Which is true but it's not better by much. It's the same size piping as your stock piping. so in essence it's a waste of money.

DC or Megan Racing, both will give gains over stock. Just for your info, the Megan Racing header has bigger diameter piping. I'm sure the DC does too, heck the old eBay header I had on my H22 even had bigger diameter piping.

To each thier own, if you feel like spending $1,000 on a header that's going to give you almost the same performance as a $200-$400 dollar header, then be my guest. It's a matter of preference, everyone is on a different type of budget.

[THE ONE]

DC or Megan Racing, both will give gains over stock. Just for your info, the Megan Racing header has bigger diameter piping. I'm sure the DC does too, heck the old eBay header I had on my H22 even had bigger diameter piping.

To each thier own, if you feel like spending $1,000 on a header that's going to give you almost the same performance as a $200-$400 dollar header, then be my guest. It's a matter of preference, everyone is on a different type of budget.


A DC's collector is a 2inch collector. What do you think a stock h22 collector size is? Take a guess....

A Megan Header has a 2inch collector. what size do think a stock h22 or even a h23 size is? Take another guess...

I'm not saying that you won't see gains from a dc. We are saying that the gains are minimum.

I took a little time and re-read some of the your earilier posts and saw that you said; "maybe someone should do a header test." Well they have. Infact there have been plenty. One that is saved on my computer from a few years back will give justice to this argument.

here is one there are plenty more out there:
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=922589&page=1

[THE ONE]

Sooo sounds real good. I just want to know, I wanna build my engine n/a to the top but with my car still being a daily driver. Can i put a turbo after building this n/a monster if i want to add turbo???

yes and no... It's more complicated than that. You've got a lot research to do....

[98vtec]

DC or Megan Racing, both will give gains over stock. Just for your info, the Megan Racing header has bigger diameter piping. I'm sure the DC does too, heck the old eBay header I had on my H22 even had bigger diameter piping.

To each thier own, if you feel like spending $1,000 on a header that's going to give you almost the same performance as a $200-$400 dollar header, then be my guest. It's a matter of preference, everyone is on a different type of budget.

please leave this kinda stuff to people who actually wanna make power and not just buy something off fleabay because its aftermarket and cheap. Budget or not, takes money to go fast and a megan header isnt something that compliments an engine with power aspirations.
So if you wanna buy some crap header because it looks good and adds a couple hp then be my guest. But you will NOT EVER see the gains of a megan/dc/obx header like you do a custom header. These people who make these exhausts are not stupid and dont jack the price because they want. The price is high because you are paying for something that they designed. You are paying for something that WILL make power......not might.

[Si Speed]

Basically, a DC, OBX, or whatever kinda header that is considered "less expensive" is more for looks than anything. The H-series was already well tuned from the factory and that's why you see minimal gains from those because they aren't far from being a stock piece. Like 98vtec said, the more expensive custom headers are designed and tested to provide optimum gains. So in other words, if you're trying to make the most possible power from an N/A H22, DC won't cut it but if you just want something that doesn't "look" stock, then that's all for you.
Right now I just have a ebay intake, Megan header, custom exhaust, and test pipe on my H23. I put it all on at the same time so I don't know exactly what my gains were. I can tell A difference but not a BIG difference. For $155, I'm impressed with the Megan header but it's not going to be on there long after I start with my internals.

[Showaski39]

Thanks for filling me in on the info about the collector sizes. I thought they'd be 2 1/2 inches in diameter. I only say this because I compared a stock header gasket with Megan's header gasket, and Megans header gasket was slightly bigger. So it made some sense that the collerctor may be a bit bigger, maybe 2 1/4 or 2 1/2 inches.

So the DC gave 6 WHP gains over stock JDM header? That's a decent gain in WHP for a few hundred. Now go spend a grand on a header to only gain 2-3 more WHP than that cheaper header.

I mentioned the TC headers to give an example. Then I get replies telling me that the TC results are WAAAY off and not even comparable to a H22. Now heres someone who actually found dyno results for a H22 with different headers. Wow, what a difference. The DC header gave both the TC and H22 exactly 6-7 WHP over stock. WOW! Looks like I did provide a comparable test result!

and who the hell saids Megan or DC "MIGHT" give you extra power. They WILL add more power just like those other ones. Not the same power, but it does. I'm only saying all this because the thread starter makes it seem like people HAVE to get these expensive headers to make a lot of power in N/A form.

Look, if your going to spend $1,000 dollars on a header. Give me the damn money, i'll buy myself a set of cam gears and cams and make MORE power than your expensive ass header will. Sh!t, for $1,000 you can add a bottle of nitro and still make more power than that expensive header that you spend sooo much money on.

/rant

[THE ONE]

you saw what one of your last sentence said? 'get cams.' the custom headers are designed for that. put a h22 together and do your own dyno test. use the dc header you have and use a high dollar header and compare your results.

custom headers are desiigned high compression and cams. thus they make more power. you keep buying these oem knock offs and its a waste of money bro. you will never see the gains your suppose to.

the thing that's amazing to me and has always been amazed to me is the fact that even though custom headers are designed for high compression and cams. they still make more power on a stock engine than the oem knock offs.

I my thought process is a little different from yours. put together a high compression h22 with your dc header and put it against another h22 with same set up but high price custom header and see who makes more power.....

nitrous? that has nothing to do with N/A

[98vtec]

So the DC gave 6 WHP gains over stock JDM header? That's a decent gain in WHP for a few hundred. Now go spend a grand on a header to only gain 2-3 more WHP than that cheaper header.

6whp peak. What happened with the rest of the graph? Pretty much the same damn power. It just caries it a little higher, woopdeedoo.

I mentioned the TC headers to give an example. Then I get replies telling me that the TC results are WAAAY off and not even comparable to a H22. Now heres someone who actually found dyno results for a H22 with different headers. Wow, what a difference. The DC header gave both the TC and H22 exactly 6-7 WHP over stock. WOW! Looks like I did provide a comparable test result!

WOW! thats great.

and who the hell saids Megan or DC "MIGHT" give you extra power. They WILL add more power just like those other ones. Not the same power, but it does. I'm only saying all this because the thread starter makes it seem like people HAVE to get these expensive headers to make a lot of power in N/A form.

If you want to make alot of power and not have a setup that is lacking of have a setup that is being held back by a ****ing bolt on, then be my guest and waste your money on NA and buy some ****ty exhaust. I'd love to take the motor i am building now and compare the results of a DC header and a custom header. i can damn near guarantee you the differences would be astonishing/mind blowing. Not to mention the graph is going to look a ****load better.

Look, if your going to spend $1,000 dollars on a header. Give me the damn money, i'll buy myself a set of cam gears and cams and make MORE power than your expensive ass header will. Sh!t, for $1,000 you can add a bottle of nitro and still make more power than that expensive header that you spend sooo much money on.

look, dont go all motor if you have a cap. Nitrous also doesnt equal NA. Its a forced induction which doesnt even belong in this thread because this is an NA thread. Being that this is an NA thread, no one is going to recommend getting parts that dont match up to making alot of power.

Go in to the HT allmotor forum and lookup alot of the setups and people who have posted their mods and dyno graphs. These people will have awesome builds for them only to be held back in power because they wouldnt spend the money on a custom header when they spent 6k on an engine build. Seems pretty rediculous to me for people to modify their engines, spend their money on parts that dont do anything, then wonder why their car doesnt make power or why it is slow

A smart person saves their money for the better quality parts that actually work and arent there just to look good. Look at the Dc sports header. Sure it fits on the h22, but its not designed for it. Its designed for a 1.6-1.8L A header designed for a small motor will not make power and will not EVER compliment an engine with aspirations to make power.

/rant

/rant

...........

[THE ONE]

...

[Si Speed]

...uh huh...

[98vtec]

sorry, went off a bit. Thats a really long post for me nowadays.

[Showaski39]

Nitrous being forced induction is a topic that can go both ways.
Nitrous isn't dependant on engine speed unlike a turbo or supercharger. That's a iffy topic.

98vtec, you're right when you say that people spend grands on a engine build but spend little money elsewhere. If anyone is going to spend that much money on the motor, then they might as well go with the higher quality header obviously. I even said it myself in one of my previous posts.

I'm simply defending those cheap headers that most of you flame/bash/sh!t on, aren't half as bad as you guys make them sound. I like the MR for how cheap it is. I personally hate DC headers because everyone and thier mom has one.

Edit (after thought): TEL, you brought up a good point that I overlooked about the cams. Even then, I personally wouldn't spend that much on a header like the Hytech. Maybe once I start changing the internals of the motor (pistons, etc.), then I may think about spending that extra money on a top dollar header. Beside cams there is not much more you can do as far as bolt ons go.

[98vtec]

this is a thread for making power, not tinkering.

[Showaski39]

OK? So what's wrong about speaking of making cheap power in a thread about making power? If you're going to post something like that 98vtec, you are better off using the PM function.

I was simply throwing it out there for readers reading this thread, that a $1,000 dollar header is not a neccessity for making some extra ponies. Mainly for those on a lower budget. Lets stay on topic now. :rolleyes:

[THE ONE]

I was simply throwing it out there for readers reading this thread, that a $1,000 dollar header is not a neccessity for making some extra ponies. Mainly for those on a lower budget. Lets stay on topic now. :rolleyes:

This thread states at the top "how to build a successful n/a h22." Go look at the header on the first page. That means from my experiences for the past five years of owning 3 h22s I'm making my observation of knowledge. Now... As far as statement about being on a budget, any N/A build whether its a h22 or k20 or b18 or LS1 or whatever... that budget will include a good/great header. SO..... Cheap oem knock offs won't work. if you don't like what I said then start a thread discussing your views on high price headers. Simply because of the fact that people that go n/a will pay for a header. It is a NECESSITY. If you don't understand why then make a thread about it and people will gladly explain. oem knock offs don't make power like you would with a custom header. it's just as simple as that. There are people who have dynoed built motors with dc headers and then changed to a custom header and saw over 15hp gains. Go do some research.

TEL.

I'm not being mean but this is not a thread to talk about cheap hp. this is a thread dedicated in doing things right. running high compression on a 2.2L liter engine using a stock primary runners and stock collector is just out right stupid. Been there done that. Don't want any of my fellow preluders to do the same.

When you talk about n/a you are talking about compression/aggressive timing/big cams and guess what???? A good header. oem knock off does not and will not do give you the gains you "OUGHT" to get. Ought meaning "what you must/should/will"

There is no excuse for not maximizing your power n/a by being cheap. you are already limited to how much you can gain anyways. yet you would rather spend a load on your motor and not let it breathe by being cheap. doesn't make any sense man

TEL

[98vtec]

word.

[Showaski39]

I did say SOME extra ponies, not 15 WHP. Megan or DC will obviously never give gains like that. Does the OEM header have manderal bends? I doubt it, so they're really not just OEM knock offs. Who would want a knock off of a OEM header anyway.

I'm not disagreeing with you guys (never was) for the most part. Just because i'm voicing my opinion on a public forum doesn't mean you have to down me for having a different outlook on things. The Megan Racing header (AKA a "OEM Knockoff") for $190 MSRP isn't a bad header at all. It's not played out like the DC either and it does add SOME HP.

Just not the best if you're going all out with the motor. It's def. something to start with though. It's probably not the smartest thing to spend $1,000 on a header for your first few mods on your H22. If it's not going to make a huge difference unless you have some high compression, it's probably the least of your worries to start with.

[whiteboylude]

just of this topic, what kind of intake manifold is recommended.....skunk or stock (port n polish)?

[THE ONE]

I did say SOME extra ponies, not 15 WHP. Megan or DC will obviously never give gains like that. Does the OEM header have manderal bends? I doubt it, so they're really not just OEM knock offs. Who would want a knock off of a OEM header anyway.

I'm not disagreeing with you guys (never was) for the most part. Just because i'm voicing my opinion on a public forum doesn't mean you have to down me for having a different outlook on things. The Megan Racing header (AKA a "OEM Knockoff") for $190 MSRP isn't a bad header at all. It's not played out like the DC either and it does add SOME HP.

Just not the best if you're going all out with the motor. It's def. something to start with though. It's probably not the smartest thing to spend $1,000 on a header for your first few mods on your H22. If it's not going to make a huge difference unless you have some high compression, it's probably the least of your worries to start with.

if an aftermarket header looks exactly like the one that came on the car. With the same size primaries. With the same size collector. it's oem knock off. So just like you said: "why would anybody want that?"

Your not dissagreeing with us but my my simple thread has reached 50 replies. Whether a header is played out or not has nothing to do with making power. if it's designed exactly like the oem one it won't make much gains even with a long list of mods. Like I've stated before.... been there done that. Nobody said if you are doing SIMPLE BOLT ONS that those aren't o.k. But when you are building a N/A ENGINE those pos's won't cut it.


If something has been proven not to be effecient why would you waste your money buying it; even if your just starting out? Nobody is questioning your outlook of things. Just saying this is not the thread for it. This is for BUILDING A N/A MOTOR SUCCESSFULLY. Not making cheap power but REAL POWER.


If your not disagreeing then why are we going through this non-sense? If you want to voice your opinions make a discussion thread and Luders will gladly tell you how they feel and why they feel the way they feel. it's that simple. No one is talking down to you but it seems your missing the point of this thread called HOW TO BUILD H22 N/A SUCCESSFULLY.

[THE ONE]

just of this topic, what kind of intake manifold is recommended.....skunk or stock (port n polish)?

Skunk2 pro series manifold is a waste of money. you can port your stock manni and port match your throttle body as well and be just fine.

your other not too expensive option is the Euro R manifold. it's cheaper than the skunk2 yet nets more power.

[98vtec]

Skunk2 pro series manifold is a waste of money. you can port your stock manni and port match your throttle body as well and be just fine.

your other not too expensive option is the Euro R manifold. it's cheaper than the skunk2 yet nets more power.

its a bitch to get running properly.

[Showaski39]

It's not exactly the same, the OEM header does not have manderal bends. That would make it somewhat different. The material the header is made out of plays a role too. That OEM material does play a factor when you start to talk about temperature.

I wonder how well a tuned "POS" header will do on the dyno compared to a untuned "POS" header. Just a thought, since exhaust flows much better when the heat is maintained.

Isn't the Skunk2 IM mainly for turbo H22's? I've read on Honda-Tech that some people have actually lost power from the Skunk2 manifold.

[THE ONE]

yeah it makes power on boosted ludes; but the plennums are not designed well for N/A

[THE ONE]

its a bitch to get running properly.


The Euro R? If yes I must agree with that statement. After I put it on I had to take it off becuase of the damn fuel rail. The spot for the fuel line is on the opposit side of where I would like it to be. To make matters worse, it only has 2 bolts and all other h22 manifolds have three bolts for the fuel rail so I can't even attempt to put an aftermarket fuel rail on it to reverse the spot for the line.

The skunk2 manifold? Now that was bitch.... I don't even remember how we (my brother) had to rigg it to get the egr on it.

[Si Speed]

Skunk2 pro series manifold is a waste of money. you can port your stock manni and port match your throttle body as well and be just fine.

your other not too expensive option is the Euro R manifold. it's cheaper than the skunk2 yet nets more power.

Word. Just to add a little to this, the H22 IM is one of the most free flowing/efficent STOCK IM out there. Porting and matching the throttle body would be the way that I would go.

[bc2_bb6]

don't mean to go off topic since the point of this thread is about making more power.

the reason for more power is better performance and there is no easier way of getting more performance out of your honda then by lowering the weight of the car.

everyone knows that unfortunately the h22 is one of the heaviest 4 cyl honda motors, well then have you ever taken off your stock header and/or muffler and felt how heavy they are???

All though the bottom basement headers won't yeild too much hp or torque they will drop some weight off the nose of your car and it does add up...

so there is a benefit to cheapo headers
my 2 cents...

[HellKnightDragon]

I whant to know if the Mugen Header is it worth buying?

[ogsmakdade]

The Euro R? If yes I must agree with that statement. After I put it on I had to take it off becuase of the damn fuel rail. The spot for the fuel line is on the opposit side of where I would like it to be. To make matters worse, it only has 2 bolts and all other h22 manifolds have three bolts for the fuel rail so I can't even attempt to put an aftermarket fuel rail on it to reverse the spot for the line.

The skunk2 manifold? Now that was bitch.... I don't even remember how we (my brother) had to rigg it to get the egr on it.

pshhhhh. I like my pro manifold. btw it is port matched to the head. punk! lol

[98vtec]

pshhhhh. I like my pro manifold. btw it is port matched to the head. punk! lol


u need to run your car at the track.

[ogsmakdade]

u need to run your car at the track.

this is true blake. I can not launch that car to save my life. It's much different than stock. I can't drive it on the street so I don't have much practice with her. I might get it to the track soon just to see what I put down

[93[BB4]Prelude]

thankyou for this write-up, mainly because im going to build my h22 to be a n/a monster hopefully

[CARismaSteve]

N/A is cheaper than boost ... ALOT cheaper ... and you only need 1/2 HP if your N/A and want to keep up with boosted cars ...

[THE ONE]

N/A is cheaper than boost ... ALOT cheaper ... and you only need 1/2 HP if your N/A and want to keep up with boosted cars ...

you have it backwards... boost is cheaper than n/a.


your last statement is also false. you have to take more things into account.

[ogsmakdade]

you have it backwards... boost is cheaper than n/a.


your last statement is also false. you have to take more things into account.

I personally know what is is to spend large amounts of money on an N/A build. It's much more difficult and expensive to make N/A power. Just compare cost:hp ratio.

[SuperSlowH22]

Nice write up!! love the good work!! :smile:

gone a little off topic at some points, and more into a pissing contest for some but Good to try and make a positive effort!! :tongue:

EVERYONE you do need to be careful when listening to some of these internet fourm dorks like 98vtec , they been on the internet for years know a little bit about cars WATCH a bunch of others make moves, and then sit around on a fourm and try to build themselfs up about what there buddies do or dont do..... :mad: and how THEY KNOW everything is ever known, thought of, or will ever be known!! LOL LOL LOL :biggrin:

just make sure to keep an open mind about FACTS and not what some guy on the internet tell you "RIGHT" and you 98vtec , LOL your not even worth my time ....... :smashfreakB:

Keep up the good work all!!! and busters beware... :cool:

[dillon]

just curious but whats f/i if thats n/a?

[99PreludeSh]

great write up!

[snakerb]

this thread is the $H!ZN!T

[R8GYY]

quick question???.. it may be a silly question but here goes...

if you upgrade your valves, cams, retainers and springs does your rev limit increase and what does it increase to?

[OEM~KaOs]

This is a great thread besides the minor fighting over the headers issue. I'll probably be hated for my opinion as well, but f*** it. If your going to build a n/a beast then why would you skimp out on the headers? You're spending 6k on a full engine build, my guess is that you can take some time and save up for some nice headers that will give you nice gain and do more then just give a few special bends that make it different from stock. I have been debating n/a and boost for a long time, and have come to realize that boost is fun, sounds cool, and gives power gains like no other, but it takes alot of money and ALOT of research to make a truly amazing n/a build. I give lots of respet to ogsmakdade for creating one extremely beautiful piece of machinery, your engine is truly amazing, and he knows what he did and why he did it, lots of research into that build, and thats what its all about. sorry, babbled a bit there, im bored in school... i hate working on buicks, lol

[Si Speed]

just curious but whats f/i if thats n/a?

Forced Induction
Naturally Aspirated

quick question???.. it may be a silly question but here goes...

if you upgrade your valves, cams, retainers and springs does your rev limit increase and what does it increase to?

It all depends on what the upgrades are.

[snakerb]

Well I'm driving a n/a but that's cause I was so desperate for a 5th that I gave up looking for a standard and got an auto. Don't wanna spend crazy money on an auto.

[Si Speed]

5 speed swap is always an option

[THE ONE]

quick question???.. it may be a silly question but here goes...

if you upgrade your valves, cams, retainers and springs does your rev limit increase and what does it increase to?

there is no such thing as a silly question my friend. If you don't know the only way to find out is to ask or research and you asked.

If you upgrade your valves, cams, retainers etc etc it gives you the ability to raise your rev limit. That doesn't mean that it's necessary for you to do so. You'd have to have it dyno tuned and see you're making power pass the stock fuel cut off. Which in some if not most cases you will make a little more power pass the stock fuel cutoff.

[dillon]

no i knew what they stood for but i meant like some examples of them? like i/h/e for n/a but what are some fi ways like turbo super charger stuff liek that right?

[BadMofo]

no i knew what they stood for but i meant like some examples of them? like i/h/e for n/a but what are some fi ways like turbo super charger stuff liek that right?

Forced induction : Turbocharger, supercharger

N/A is simply anything that's not forced induction...

i/h/e (intake/header/exhaust) is not n/a specific, or F/I specific. You can put intake header and exhaust on any car... it doesn't make a car forced induction, and it doesn't make a car naturally aspirated...

The only difference is the presence/absence of a turbo/supercharger.

Naturally aspirated is just that... (to aspirate means "to inhale"), so naturally aspirated means that it inhales naturally what is available to it... Technically, it means that the pressure inside the intake manifold is a result of atmospheric pressure, vacuum, venturi effect, etc...

Forced induction is when air is "induced forcefully" into the intake manifold by means of a pump basically (all a super/turbocharger really is, is an air pump... The two work in two different ways, but they produce the same end result: increased pressure in the intake manifold)

[99PreludeSh]

Forced induction : Turbocharger, supercharger

N/A is simply anything that's not forced induction...

Some people also throw Nitrous into the f/i section but thats really on the edge I would say

[BadMofo]

I understand how some people throw nitrous into that category... I don't agree, but I understand =P. I think the concept is that when using nitrous, you are increasing the pressure in the cylinders by means other than venturi effect, atmospheric pressure, and vacuum, so technically it's not n/a... but it's not really "forced" induction either... If I were to make my own terminology for it, I'd call it "reactionary induction" or something to differentiate... then again... what do I know.

To the best of my (limited) knowledge, the basic idea behind nitrous is that it's very cold (therefore it's denser than atmospheric air), and carries more oxygen than standard air (remember... it is N2O, 2 nitrogen molecules along with one oxygen molecule, so it is 33% oxygen... atmostpheric air is only about 21% oxygen), so not only can you fit more of it in terms of pure volume into the intake manifold, but even if you could fit the same volume of nitrous and atmospheric air into a given space... the nitrous carries more oxygen with it per ratio...

In a dry nitrous system, when it is pushed through the MAP sensor, this increase in oxygen volume and pressure triggers an increase in the amount of fuel required to properly burn it, and then I believe that when nitrous breaks down in the combustion chamber it releases the 1 oxygen molecule that was previously bonded to the 2 nitrogen molecules in an exothermic reaction, increasing overall pressure even more...

Because of the drastic increase in oxygen over a standard N/A application, it is imperitive to get a good tune, and I would assume to use a much better MAP sensor as well.

I'm by no means an expert on the topic, and many people are much more educated than I am... but my point is that it shouldn't be considered "forced" induction... it's more of a physical reaction than anything else.

I believe that in many types of competitive drag racing, if you have nitrous you have to declare yourself as Forced Induction and not naturally aspirated.

[98BB6SH]

THE ONE -
you really seem to know your sh#t. thanks for the great posts. i just bought my 5th gen and your thread helped a lot. keep em comin.

[THE ONE]

I understand how some people throw nitrous into that category... I don't agree, but I understand =P. I think the concept is that when using nitrous, you are increasing the pressure in the cylinders by means other than venturi effect, atmospheric pressure, and vacuum, so technically it's not n/a... but it's not really "forced" induction either... If I were to make my own terminology for it, I'd call it "reactionary induction" or something to differentiate... then again... what do I know.

To the best of my (limited) knowledge, the basic idea behind nitrous is that it's very cold (therefore it's denser than atmospheric air), and carries more oxygen than standard air (remember... it is N2O, 2 nitrogen molecules along with one oxygen molecule, so it is 33% oxygen... atmostpheric air is only about 21% oxygen), so not only can you fit more of it in terms of pure volume into the intake manifold, but even if you could fit the same volume of nitrous and atmospheric air into a given space... the nitrous carries more oxygen with it per ratio...

In a dry nitrous system, when it is pushed through the MAP sensor, this increase in oxygen volume and pressure triggers an increase in the amount of fuel required to properly burn it, and then I believe that when nitrous breaks down in the combustion chamber it releases the 1 oxygen molecule that was previously bonded to the 2 nitrogen molecules in an exothermic reaction, increasing overall pressure even more...

Because of the drastic increase in oxygen over a standard N/A application, it is imperitive to get a good tune, and I would assume to use a much better MAP sensor as well.

I'm by no means an expert on the topic, and many people are much more educated than I am... but my point is that it shouldn't be considered "forced" induction... it's more of a physical reaction than anything else.

I believe that in many types of competitive drag racing, if you have nitrous you have to declare yourself as Forced Induction and not naturally aspirated.

reactionary induction? that's actually a good way of looking at it. I also don't believe that it should be considered force induction. Well said man. for someone that thinks they don't know much that was well said:biggrin:

THE ONE -
you really seem to know your sh#t. thanks for the great posts. i just bought my 5th gen and your thread helped a lot. keep em comin.

your welcome. I'll try to keep them coming...

[PepsiOne]

good write up...

[Brash22]

I believe that in many types of competitive drag racing, if you have nitrous you have to declare yourself as Forced Induction and not naturally aspirated.

This is due to the fact that it is a "power adder," also often referred to as "chemical supercharging." Though drag racing and classification aren't that really good together - many rotory classes use the same designation as the equivalent 6 cylinder class.

[team123luder]

I just read the entire posts and damn.... I've learned so much since the last time I've posted on here.

200whp means nothing to me now, it's all about your tq/power curve. This thread is pretty decent and for the average eye, it's really an opener.

FYI, Boost can be just as or even more expensive then NA... however for similar power figures, boost will always be cheaper.

[BadMofo]

I just read the entire posts and damn.... I've learned so much since the last time I've posted on here.

200whp means nothing to me now, it's all about your tq/power curve. This thread is pretty decent and for the average eye, it's really an opener.

FYI, Boost can be just as or even more expensive then NA... however for similar power figures, boost will always be cheaper.


Generally that's pretty true, but for ludes, n/a is 90% of the time MUCH more expensive than turboing... When I heard how much money some people who will remain nameless put into their motors... I was absolutely SHOCKED.

[thomas97]

i wish someone had the money to throw together an ebay engine, JUST to see how it would preform, ya know OBX and all tht ****.

im guessing, but also not sure, that the engine would come to a demise of overheating, detonation, knocking, or just in general would loose power over stock and eventually melt down.

it would be intresting, but whats the point of possibly wasting alot on ebay!?

[MAFIA H22]

nice write-up, straight forward.. thanks man..... Rep for you

[mr_y82]

Damn no comments or questions? I can't be that good... or wait! I guess I didn't make any sense huh?

Damn, you are indeed the man.:drum:

[98BB6SH]

BUMP!

this is one of the best threads on this site. although boost is sick i am going for an N/A beast. so far it's going really well. it'd be a lot better if shiit was always backordered for my car but well worth the wait once the parts finally get in.

thanks for all the helpful info (it also helps to have bustr as a local friend/luder, lol)

[Jwizz]

How much HP can the H22 and its tranny take bone stock? No mods to the engine at all.

[mr_y82]

?? it obviously won't "make more than it can take" bone stock... I have no clue, but the trannies can put up with a good bit.

[OEM~KaOs]

The transmission will take whatever the engine gives it at stock dude...you have to put modifications ON it to get more horsepower...lol...

But the Prelude is rated at 195 hp to the crank, which is roughly 160hp to the wheels

If you upgrade the clutch, flywheel and pressure plate, depending on what stage you throw in, they can take horsepower at whatever they are rated at.

[mr_y82]

I was reading through that thread again, and wanted to let you know that eCtune has given me no problems on my chipped p28, and it can program the IABs, knock sensor, etc... It's a great program that is worth mentioning. I have really enjoyed what it did for my car.

Hell, it may have come out after you started the thread.

[98vtec]

i believe it came out late 2006 for selected people

[audiophile]

just got done reading the WHOLE thread, fights included... i have to say i love it. definitly gave me much insight.

i am currently building my h22a1 for all motor. i read somewhere about ITB's and thought the idea was awesome and it happens to look f***in baller. doesn't this take the place of the intake manifold and the throttle body?

THE ONE - what is your experience or knowledge of itbs. who makes the best regardless of price? who makes the best on a budget?

[THE ONE]

I was reading through that thread again, and wanted to let you know that eCtune has given me no problems on my chipped p28, and it can program the IABs, knock sensor, etc... It's a great program that is worth mentioning. I have really enjoyed what it did for my car.

Hell, it may have come out after you started the thread.

it probly did come out after I made this thread. Do you know if you are the only good story about ectune or are there more? if so give me some links you are more than welcome to pm them to me.

[THE ONE]

just got done reading the WHOLE thread, fights included... i have to say i love it. definitly gave me much insight.

i am currently building my h22a1 for all motor. i read somewhere about ITB's and thought the idea was awesome and it happens to look f***in baller. doesn't this take the place of the intake manifold and the throttle body?

THE ONE - what is your experience or knowledge of itbs. who makes the best regardless of price? who makes the best on a budget?

They do take the place of the intake manifold and throttle body.

I haven't had personal experience with ITB's on the h22. I have a friend that has them on his rsx k20 and they are sick! The only man I know that have put them on a h22 is the guy that posted right before Blake (98vtec). He has the inside scoope on them because he put together a really unique setup but opted to remove them because of tuning issues if I remember correctly. Chime in Blake.

[Si Speed]

If I'm not mistaking, Blake, isn't Rosko running ITB's?

[98vtec]

They do take the place of the intake manifold and throttle body.

I haven't had personal experience with ITB's on the h22. I have a friend that has them on his rsx k20 and they are sick! The only man I know that have put them on a h22 is the guy that posted right before Blake (98vtec). He has the inside scoope on them because he put together a really unique setup but opted to remove them because of tuning issues if I remember correctly. Chime in Blake.

for shelf ITB's, you better have an engine that really needs them or you are going to be missing out on power in some pretty critical areas and you better have a tuner with knowledge on how to properly set them up and tune them. You cant just put ITB's on without syncing the throttle plates and adjust TPS voltage before you go tuning. Then you also have to have a tuning program that is setup to properly operate them.

I ran into mechanical issues, not tuning issues but i did not run an off the shelf set. I put some together from a hayabusa and used crome to tune them. There are MANY many things i would change with the setup if i made another set.

If i could recommend a set, i would recommend some custom Jenvey or Kinsler. Neither of which are cheap but they are top of the line in quality and design and you wont run into some of the issues that people do with TWM.

On the majority of engines, the proper intake manifold design will exceed an ITB setup where it matters most (under peak).

Elliot, rosko runs a EuroR.

[macsemper]

well this thread is a little more than i bargined for when i started reading it... wow. im currently going in to replace my piston rings and i figgured i would kick my internals up a notch since im going to have to take the engine apart anyway. so my spending range is around 3-4k what should i go for? headers exhaust intake etc can all be added later im trying to do as much as i can on the inside now so i don't have to take my engine apart again later with my eventual goal being to create an awsome N/A lude. im just starting to learn about cars here so alot of what you are saying about ecu's makes no sense to me. i will do some research and check back hear again once im learned. i just wanted some imput on what you think i should do within that price range with the priority on the mods that will be hardest to do again later once my engine is back together.

[OEM~KaOs]

High compression pistons, balance and polish crankshaft, balance and polish camshafts, new piston rings, all new bearings, check oil clearances, make necessary repairs.... theres a start :biggrin:

[THE ONE]

well this thread is a little more than i bargined for when i started reading it... wow. im currently going in to replace my piston rings and i figgured i would kick my internals up a notch since im going to have to take the engine apart anyway. so my spending range is around 3-4k what should i go for? headers exhaust intake etc can all be added later im trying to do as much as i can on the inside now so i don't have to take my engine apart again later with my eventual goal being to create an awsome N/A lude. im just starting to learn about cars here so alot of what you are saying about ecu's makes no sense to me. i will do some research and check back hear again once im learned. i just wanted some imput on what you think i should do within that price range with the priority on the mods that will be hardest to do again later once my engine is back together.

With 3-4k to spend you really won't get much. you can buy a set of type s pistons and rispins. New rings, and get some type s cams or skunk2 pro1 cams wth valvtrain and I think you are already over your budget with that. So you really have to figure out where you want to go and how much power you are looking for.

[THE ONE]

High compression pistons, balance and polish crankshaft, new piston rings, all new bearings, check oil clearances, make necessary repairs.... theres a start :biggrin:

I fixed it for yah:wink:

[macsemper]

sounds like a good plan, i was never planning on doing much to the engine i was just gonna slap a supercharger on it at somepoint and to the Header, intake, exhaust route but i figure since i gotta take it apart anyway to do the rings i might as well replace what i can while im in there. i know i can't get far with 4k but i figgure i might as well do what i can since it has to be done now anyway.

[Si Speed]

High compression pistons, balance and polish crankshaft, balance and polish camshafts, new piston rings, all new bearings, check oil clearances, make necessary repairs.... theres a start :biggrin:

Balancing the flywheel is also a help. I sorta wish I had kept mine but I still plan on getting a 8 lb. one instead of the 14 I had.

[OEM~KaOs]

I posted to balance and polish camshaft - it can be done and has been done and i've SEEN it done right in front of my eyes at a machine shop here in MN - whether or not you want to go that route or buy new cams is totally up to whoever is doing the build.

Honestly if I was going NA I would find some cams that work better then the stock ones, but if you find that the stock ones rub and tug you the right way and get your jollies off, then by all means use em!

I can throw ALOT more your way if you want me to - i just went thru my whole engine rebuilding class so I have got quite alot of info at my disposal, haha

I guess I need to edit this because when I posted BALANCE i meant straighten - in my view it's the same thing, but i guess wording it makes the difference, so sorry for the confusion...

[macsemper]

so i guess the question is is it worth trying? or should i just replace my rings and fix the problem and not bother replacing parts inside?

[THE ONE]

so i guess the question is is it worth trying? or should i just replace my rings and fix the problem and not bother replacing parts inside?


hahaha that's really for you to decide if it's worth it or not? can't do that for you...

[THE ONE]

I posted to balance and polish camshaft - it can be done and has been done and i've SEEN it done right in front of my eyes at a machine shop here in MN - whether or not you want to go that route or buy new cams is totally up to whoever is doing the build.

Honestly if I was going NA I would find some cams that work better then the stock ones, but if you find that the stock ones rub and tug you the right way and get your jollies off, then by all means use em!

I can throw ALOT more your way if you want me to - i just went thru my whole engine rebuilding class so I have got quite alot of info at my disposal, haha

I guess I need to edit this because when I posted BALANCE i meant straighten - in my view it's the same thing, but i guess wording it makes the difference, so sorry for the confusion...


how much power was gained from balancing a set of stock h22 camshafts?

[OEM~KaOs]

I saw it at a machine shop - why would i have ANY idea what the power gain was or care?

And if you read - second line, where I state my opinion - I say I would get different cams :smile:
thanks

[macsemper]

ok another question, you say get the pro1 series camshaft from skunk 2 yes? just curious as to why get the pro over the tuner series and why the 1 over the 2 or 3. also i really feel like taking my engine apart myself since its already busted anyway i can't really do any more damage, anybody have a good recomendation as to a book i can get to start learning? im getting a cheapy car to drive so i'll have all the time in the world to screw around

[mr_y82]

^ chiltons or helms?

[THE ONE]

ok another question, you say get the pro1 series camshaft from skunk 2 yes? just curious as to why get the pro over the tuner series and why the 1 over the 2 or 3. also i really feel like taking my engine apart myself since its already busted anyway i can't really do any more damage, anybody have a good recomendation as to a book i can get to start learning? im getting a cheapy car to drive so i'll have all the time in the world to screw around


Mr_y82 recommend 2 good books.


your first quetion... short answers
pro1s are for more street use, stock bottom end.
pro2s for higher compression
pro3s... well in the same catigory as pro2s just geared more to track use.