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0.47A draw on '99 base with H23A vtec and obd2 trans

 
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Old 01-06-2015, 07:02 PM
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0.47A draw on '99 base with H23A vtec and obd2 trans

I bought a '99 base that already has an h23a vtec in it with 20k on it, but has the M6HA auto trans from the original F20A4 configuration(only mentioned because OBD version-difference). It has a heavy-duty Duralast manufactured 12/14.

It had a power draw from the time I bought it. I've removed the viper alarm and custom stereo stuff, audited all body wiring, series checked positive cable with all doors closed and altenator and starter both hooked and unhooked, still 0.47A draw under all conditions.

Tomorrow when it's daylight I'll make sure OEM audio amp is disconnected. There are no lights in trunk or cabin staying on when things are closed, no light on dash when off and no key. I'm basically going to go as deep as I can with process of elimination(anything not under car or buried in interior). I think the draw is suppose to be around 0.01A-0.05A or less(reference would be appreciated).. I'll also do dynamic and static ground test even though this shouldn't in theory cause off-drain. I'll also find a way to test the voltage regulator(s).

Has anyone had the problem after a swap? I know it's a OBDI PCM&Engine with a OBDII trans and in theory voltage irregularities COULD cause it but where? When full crank amps are there car starts like new.

There are ZERO defects with the car other than battery drain(no weird dash behaviors etc..). I'm currently just removing negative when parked longer than two hours. I think it does have two DTCs, one for a signal wire to trans and the other crank sensor maybe was told both were likely the result of OBD difference(I'll update with actual codes when I get back to it tomorrow).

Thanks

Last edited by c340nj8; 01-06-2015 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 01-06-2015, 08:39 PM
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Re: 0.47A draw on '99 base with H23A vtec and obd2 trans

You have a draw. Duh. You know that.

But it's more than likely not the swap or the stereo.

Are there any wires to the battery left, other than the car's hot wire to the battery?

You can search n search for the draw or get a mechanic to give it a look-see...usually a $75 disgnose fee involved.
Don't be too ashamed to take it to a shop...just do some homework, trying to find a shop while you continue to use the ole volt meter.
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welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
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I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

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Old 01-07-2015, 08:20 PM
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Re: 0.47A draw on '99 base with H23A vtec and obd2 trans

Do to battery disconnects OBD is only reporting 1655(ECM->TCM bus signal related) and there are no historic or pending faults stored. There was two. The other I think was a crank balance or rpm sensor or something.

Doing series with multi-meter on ground I got these today pulling hood fuse box fuses and relays, and unplugging OEM amp in trunk and AC control. Doors and trunk closed and all alarm and radio plugs and splices removed.
  • 50A IGN SW, 10A Clock Radio, and 100A Battery fuses pulled: 0.01A
  • Only IGN SW and Clock Radio pulled: 0.01A
  • No fuses pulled with OEM rear amp plugs connected: 0.43A-0.51A fluctuation
  • No fuses pulled without OEM rear amp connected: 0.41A
  • 10A Clock Radio pulled with and without OEM amp hooked up with key inserted:0.36A
  • 10A Clock Radio pulled with and without OEM amp hooked without key inserted:0.37A
  • All the hood-box relays pulled had 0 effect

Summary:0.35A on IGN SW bus and 0.05A on Clock Radio bus. The 0.01 from key likely RFID crypto Security controller for immobilizer pulsing.

Harbor Freight free multimeter @10A setting with 1.2% accuracy, not that it matters.

It got dark and too cold to move on to interior primary fuse board, plus I spent a while cleaning up old splices from the alarm with resin solder and butt connectors.

IGN SW bus hosts a lot of stuff like PCM and TCM and about a dozen other things, this is why I suspect the swap or something too deep in interior to fix in a day. Tomorrow I'll do testing on interior fuses and relays of the main board which in theory should give a more specific location of the big draw. If nothing else at least the community has some reference figures for electrical troubleshooting. IF.. and that's a big IF.. The draw is from a digital wire PCM<->TCM or PCM<->BCM I know from experience there is no logical way to fix it but by buying $1,000.00 wiring harnesses and $300.00 modules, or get good deals on scraps and trial and error.. The most expensive short finder, flash kit, or OBD tools on the market will at most detect blown PCM drivers or totally dead modules..

EDIT: Also if I can I'll document every ground location, even though I think some were removed with the swap. I think there are 3 under dash, 4 under hood, and 2 in trunk and only the 4 under hood are wrapped in the main harness so it's mostly modular and with OEM part numbers..

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Old 01-07-2015, 11:42 PM
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Re: 0.47A draw on '99 base with H23A vtec and obd2 trans

Sounds like you got this bro.

Chapter 23 of the service manual tells where grounds are supposed to be...
All Gen. Prelude Service Manuals

I wonder if it could be a simple connector related issue, like a busted wire inside the connector at the pin, or something not clipped all the way.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead

Last edited by bykfixer; 01-07-2015 at 11:58 PM.
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Old 01-08-2015, 12:22 AM
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Re: 0.47A draw on '99 base with H23A vtec and obd2 trans

I'll start on the internal primary fuse panel tomorrow(I think there are 2-3 more fuse panels but all for dash stuff and hidden). This will narrow things down and I should find the exact problem.

It can still be the PCM or TCM which would suck because of programming and hoping it isn't something blowing drivers after you drop hundreds on a module. Driver overload can only be fixed by trial and error of direct-link components(fuel injector harness, solenoid etc..) and short finders and OBD scanners almost never reveal what's doing it because the modules obfuscate the interfaces and are blown.

Around the net I see vague hints towards the OBD difference having some side effects.

EDIT: The Mitchell diagram is really good. Mostly because placement notes. I notice they have parts where lines go off to left or right of pages as if a page in a book. It's too bad you can't order prints because it's 52 pages would kill an inkjet cartridge and you can't have it printed at a office with a bulk toner unit because of copyright, 52 PDF isn't practical for real-time reference. I'll probably ebay snipe the Helms manual when I see a good listing and wait to sneak-print the Mitchell diagram somewhere with a fast toner based printer.

By speed analyzing Mitchell diagram I seen this and I think it's every direct line between PCM and TCM:
TCM>PCM
-grn/yel PCM-FL ctrl. data>SEFA
-grn>blu trans. ctrl. data>SEAF
-lt green/blk 5v+ reference>VRFF

The rest of TCM and PCM lines all go to other modules, controllers, relays, and sensors.

UPDATE:
  • No inside panel fuses or relay make a difference except #4 10A immobilizer control. It draws 0.23A/230mA with key inserted(will test with key out tomorrow forgot to)
  • Removing the RZ-0159 main relay hanging by the cabin fuse box and with Clock Radio pulled under the hood I get 0.05A total draw on the battery with key in. I can tell past owners have messed with the main relay from the scuffing, and a green wire spliced in on red/orange modular wire covered with electric tape.
  • I ran out of light again and it's below freezing, so going to wait till till tomorrow and trace that relay splice and unhook a lot of stuff in steering enclosure.
  • RZ-0159 brand new is $18.90 with free shipping on Ebay might replace either way
  • Anyone have a 99 prelude and willing to test amps between negative cable and negative terminal? Just use a multiplier with a 10A or 20A mode. The only figures I found suggested 0.02A-0.05A for this generation Honda, and suggesting even >0.03A was too much..

UPDATE2:
main relay RZ-0159 covered in 17474.pdf and 17475.pdf of Miller schematics
  • blk splices into wire that goes to PCM/ECM PG1 pin and right side engine ground
  • red/org goes to under dash fues relay box which goes to SRS fuse block which goes to IGN SW
  • grn/org goes to FLR of PCM/ECM
  • blk/yel goes to fuel pump, and there is a ground from fuel pump below right front seat
  • blu/red splices in to 7.5A fuse #2 wire of cabin box
  • white/grn spliced in 15A fuse #4 of cabin fuse box(hot at all times)
  • yel/blk spliced into PCM IGP2&IGP1 pin wires which go to junction connector right side of engine comp. which goes to the 4 injectors


UPDATE3:
100% of the grounds from Miller 54 pages of schematics. Some, like G201 with different descriptions, are duplicates. Putting dependents under each schematic ground number with location description is the best way to format it for troubleshooting, but I didn't have the time. Most have their own ground number here, I think even all but G201. It took 1.5 hours to analyze all 54 PDFs and probably would take 3 hours to properly format it. I think it's well worth finishing formatting but I had other stuff that I couldn't put off..
  • left kick panel
  • left front corner of engine comp.
  • right front of engine comp.
  • under front passenger seat
  • drivers door switch(no description)
  • parking break switch base of parking break
  • right side of engine
  • left side of passenger's footwell
  • right side of driver's footwell
  • starter motor(do description)
  • starter solenoid(no description)
  • left side front pass footwell
  • right kick panel
  • passenger door switch(no description)
  • right rear of trunk
  • engine oil pressur switch lower left of engine below oil filter
  • behind center of front bumper
  • G201 behind right side of dash
  • knock sensor left side of engine above oil filter
  • vtec solenoid valve rear of cylinder head
  • rear window defogger coil under rear shelf
  • AC compressor clutch on bracket
  • G201 heater fan switch behind right side of I/P

Last edited by c340nj8; 01-09-2015 at 12:28 AM.
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Old 01-09-2015, 05:38 PM
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Re: 0.47A draw on '99 base with H23A vtec and obd2 trans

Just an update: I found a non-factory splice from red/org main relay harness(fuse-block>SRS>IGN SW) to the lower-gauge white wire going to the blue plug on the ignition switch(too lazy to look probably fuel). This took it from 0.37A to 0.08 with everything plugged in. I think it was an attempt to fix the draw but it made it worse, or was for some hack for the viper alarm that was in.

With Clock Ratio fuse removed under hood it's 0.01A with everything in. I have around 0.05 to get off Clock Ratio circuit if common OE draw figures on the net are correct. This will make total off-draw 0.03A.

PRO TIP:Use a butane or battery powered solder iron with cheap flux solder to fix all splices and connectors and use heat shrink over that. Twisting a splice or just using butt connectors is unreliable and can cause RF problems.. I spent a while with Goo Gone getting electric tape epoxy off wires to do a never-have-to-touch-again fix with solder and shrink tube..

I think you can actually get a OE system down to 0.02A by getting rid of defroster and amp.. Which has perks for audio draw space and inactivity... I think those current filters you buy that go between posts are a good thing too, even for fuel economy since they probably get rid of RF emission problems(they are just series solid-cap capacitors)..
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Old 01-09-2015, 07:17 PM
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Re: 0.47A draw on '99 base with H23A vtec and obd2 trans

Ok...bottom line..

Is your car fixed? Lol...
You're speaking in rocket science here.

That splice you found may have been a fuel cut off the viper activates.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead
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Old 01-09-2015, 07:54 PM
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Re: 0.47A draw on '99 base with H23A vtec and obd2 trans

It didn't go to the viper.. Just a random wire from red/org main relay wire to heavy gauge white wire for switch that did nothing but parasitic draw.

I'll handle the rest of the draw some other time
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