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01' SH M/T cold start idle issues

 
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Old 01-01-2015, 11:12 PM
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01' SH M/T cold start idle issues

Evening all,

After the car warms up, it runs great. Idles at about 750 to 800 and does not stall at all at stops. Car is solid after warm up and from then on.
At start-up when cold the idle bounces from ~1300 to ~1100/1000. Again the bouncing idle goes away after it gets up to temp. I have checked for vacuum leaks. None. I have checked for proper level of antifreeze and air bubbles. Good and none. I have removed the IACV and went to clean it but it was perfectly clean. I put it back on. I opened up the FITV plate and screwed the plunger in until seated and then backed it out a half turn. Closed the plate on the FITV and still the idle bounces at the same rpm range.
Following the Helms, today I removed the air pipe inlet to the throttle body. I wanted to check the upper and lower air ports in the throttle body. At cold startup I covered the lower FITV port. It was definitely sucking in air good, but when covered with my finger, the idle still bounced. I then covered the upper IACV port and it stalled the engine. I started it back up and then let it idle and got the car up to temp. I then covered the lower FITV port again and now it was not sucking air. The FITV was working by opening and then closing once the wax plug swelled from hot water. By now as the car was up to temp, the Helms says by covering the lower port if the idle drops the FITV is leaking. The idle stayed steady. I then covered the upper port and it dropped the idle and would have stalled the car if I didn't take my finger off. I then while still at temp removed the IACV 2 pin plug. The Helms says the idle should drop. Mine stays the same at 800 rpm and steady.

I have no codes nor do I have a check engine light. I am stumped. The Helms says by the idle NOt changing whern I removed the 2 pon plug to the IACV I need to replace the IACV. What is the story here do you all think?

I am trying to look at this diagram of the throttle body and understand what the FITV and IACV do differently from eachother. I guess the FITV is totally mechanical and the IACV is electro-mechanical taking input from the ECm as well. But what is actually happening by the idle bouncing at cold start-up?

One more piece of maybe relevant history. I just got the car and the PO had fantastic service records that I now have. Good or bad, everything was done at the dealership, including oil changes. the PO complained of the same problem that I am now having with the stalling and the cold startup idle issues. The dealership found a bad IACV and recommended the IACV to be replaced. The PO declined it says on the paperwork from the dealership so the tech decided to adjust the idle it says. Whatever the heck that means. Who knows what he did instead of replacing the IACV like the tech wanted to.

Lastly, on a previous 3rd gen B20 lude I had, when I had this bouncing idle issue, i would open up the FITV and screw it back down all the way to seated and close it up. I would not back it out a half turn or anything. The car would run great. I have seen where people say to back the FITV out anywhere from a half turn to a turn and a half. Any ideas here?

Thanks and have a nice night.

Sid
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Old 01-02-2015, 12:24 AM
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Re: 01' SH M/T cold start idle issues

Hello Sid...

Let's start with the basics...the air, fuel and zap stuff you know. I'll focus on the air. A running engines draws in air through vacuum...suction as it were. In the old days air was sucked in through the carburator and life was simple. These days air flow is metered by amount, and temperature. The flow causes your engine to run at certain rpm's by adding or subtracting suction. Idle is a tricky so n so when things go well. But being these cars are no longer new, run on ethanol laced fuel and use lubricants that don't contain certain things they used to, things go awry at times. That and sensors fail. Vacuum isn't properly metered or isn't at the rate your car needs and idle bounce (idle hunt) begins.
The older intake system gets crud inside over time. The pcv system tells the tale. That and spark plugs. You can see how efficently your combustion chamber is (or isn't) by observing those two items.
Now to your issue...

The iacv is a plunger. The electronics cause said plunger to open and close. The dealership had probably just cleaned it...but they may not have gotten the thing all the way clean.

Your car has a vacuum issue. Albeit, a slight one. So first try pinching your pcv hose when it's idle hunting. Cheap fix if that stops it bouncing.
Next, tap your iacv with a hammer when it bounces. If it stops it's a sign the mechanical stuff aint working in it. Could be the winding in the iacv is bad. Could be unseen carbon causing it to stay open or closed.

The manual tells ya how to ground it out to test it for cold idle (higher rpms). Unplugging is for warm idle if memory serves (lower rpm's).

The tech twisted the idle screw. He was adding some vacuum (suction of air to mix with fuel) most likely, by turning it counter clockwise thereby adding to the amount of air getting into the intake. That would cause it to idle at higher rpm's when warm though.
But if the iacv vacuum isn't proper the throttle position sensor and other air flow metering systems get confused and start to hunt for proper idle (by changing vacuum pressures).

The iacv is expensive. Even part store types, which are usually not as reliable as the Honda ones. Try changing the gasket on your iacv where it attaches to the intake. Also try to clean that thing with brake cleaner. Let it soak a while. Tap it lightly with a hammer while your cleaner is inside.

Notice your iacv has 2 holes. The place it attaches (called upper intake manifold) has a pair as well. When the engine is cold the hole and the iacv plunger allows extra air to enter the intake for higher rpms. When the engine is warming up or warm the plunger does it's thing and starts reducing amount of air entering the intake...if the plunger doesn't open/close properly, irregular vacuum pressure vs temperatures confuse the idle system.


^^ mine aint good, but aint bad either.

Edit:
I'll post up some pix in a bit. I have an issue in my induction system and while at a junkyard exposed the intake and tb to see what they typically look like. I bought it. It's pretty ugly with 74k miles on it...
The pix show how dirty stuff gets over time and where..other than the egr, which is probably not your issue. But you can test for that too..

The pix:

^^ the outside


^^ see the build up?


^^ the inside of the tunnel


^^ an un-cleaned iacv


^^ deposits in here may also be an issue
That is the device between your upper intake and lower intake. The butterflies may not close properly, thereby causing weird vacuums, which can cause idle hunt.

Some folks say "spray carb cleaner in your throttle body." Easier said than done. If you load it up with cleaner while the motor is off, your car will be VERY hard to start after.
So you have a buddy hold the throttle around 2k rpm's while you spray it inside your throttle body.

Or you can do the seafoam thing where you remove a vacuum hose like the brake booster or pcv hose. Have some sea foam handy. A few ounces will do. Draw sea foam into an eye dropper or turkey baster. While your buddy holds the throttle at 2k, add a few drops at a time of the seafoam. It's a solvent that'll get sucked in, bounce around all those corners and such and clean all the garbage.

Don't be alarmed if your car starts bogging down and or smoking like crazy. Sea foam doesn't explode like gasoline so your car will bog. Hence the buddy and a little at a time. The smoke is all that garbage burning.

With the engine at 2k rpm's add some, a few drops. Let it work. Wait a few minutes, and add some more. Wait a few more minutes. Let the smoke clear before adding more. If you keep getting smoke after say 5 minutes stop the process and figure on cleaning the intake system off the engine. Keep the engine running a few minutes after the smoke clears.

Severley gummed up systems suddenly releasing a bunch garbage can cause 02 sensors and cat convertor issues due to soot.
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welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
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I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

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Last edited by bykfixer; 01-02-2015 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 01-02-2015, 06:14 PM
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Re: 01' SH M/T cold start idle issues

Hey Byk,

thanks so much for the reply and in depth. I like detail. Just got back inside. I removed the throttle body and thoroughly cleaned the whole FITV system. I've seen varying theories on how much to turn the FITV valve in or out upon re-assembly. I fully seated mine. It was a bit dirty so I cleaned it and the 3 o-rings looked very good. Put it all back together. got a new throttle body gasket coming in tomorrow and I purchased a new PCV valve as it looked like it had seen better days but did appear to be working. The throttle body was a bit dirty so I cleaned it as well.
Before I took it apart, I wanted to see what would happen if I unplugged the IACV when cold at start-up. It stalls immediately. I have not begun to do the things that you mentioned with the IACV yet. Although I did a couple weeks ago take it off and clean the screen and the ports on the IACV that I could see. As in your attached pics. Did not mess with the upper manifold ports for it. I'll have to order the o-ring/gasket for the IACV to upper manfold like you suggested.
I am going to look at the Helms to see where the "grounding"test at cold for the IACV is that you mention.

Question, still trying to digest this. Why does the car idle and run great after it warms up if maybe the IACV is at fault or a leak around it. You would think it would be the FITV being a temp problem. But covering the lower port for it in the throttle body when the bouncing is happening has no effect. You would think if it were a vacuum leak or the IACV, the problem would be all the time. Not just when cold. Still confused, but reading more.

I'll keep you posted. If you find the IACV testing before I do, pleaqse toss it my way.

Thanks again so much for your help and have a good weekend.

Sid

Last edited by cityjack; 01-02-2015 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 01-02-2015, 07:51 PM
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Re: 01' SH M/T cold start idle issues

Want details? He he he...

Honda IACV explained - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com
^^ this is where I saw the ground procedure.

This one aint bad either...
http://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/sol...s?limitstart=0


Between those two and some old lawnmower carburator know how I deduced how to solve my issue...I think...but I bought an iacv at the junkyard just in case.

To answer your question about why yours does what it does...well, you mave have a bad iacv, or some diaphram doesn't open/close properly.
Your issue is classic fitv issue. But your fix should've solved it..hmmmmm
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead

Last edited by bykfixer; 01-02-2015 at 07:58 PM.
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Old 01-02-2015, 09:26 PM
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Re: 01' SH M/T cold start idle issues

Thanks for the light reading Byk. I watch ALOT of Eric the car guy and his buddy Scanner Danner too. Seems Scanner says he had best luck when the FITV was a turn and a half out from fully seated. The funny thing is, I've had a 3rd gen 1990 B20 for like five years now also. Anytime it would start to bounce like once a year religiously, I'd turn the FITV back in to fully seated and I was good for a year again.

Its weird man. Like you said, classic FITV you would think. I'm wondering by the dealership tech messing with the idle was a band-aid to cover the real problem. I think after I put the new throttle body gasket on tomorrow and put it back together if it does not run right, I am going to start from the beginning of the Helms with the idle setting.

Let me ask you something. When the Helms says get the rpms to like 3K until the fans come on, I never get the fans to come on. I just run the car till the gauge on the cluster gets to the point where it always is while running, then do whatever the Helms has me do. Its like 45 - 50 degrees F here during the day. I wonder by the car sitting in the driveway will the fans come on even? Also, when disconnecting the FITV and the IACV I obviously lost a little bit of radiator fluid. Its blue. Like the color of window washer fluid. Trying to get blue fluid from the car parts store ain't happening. Is that some sort of proprietary HONDA fluid? Can I use something else to top off my fluid or even add to my reservoir you think?

Thanks again Byk.

Sid
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Old 01-02-2015, 09:52 PM
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Re: 01' SH M/T cold start idle issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by bykfixer View Post
Want details? He he he...

Honda IACV explained - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com
^^ this is where I saw the ground procedure.

This one aint bad either...
Solving Automotive Idle Problems - Eric The Car Guy- Stay Dirty!


Between those two and some old lawnmower carburator know how I deduced how to solve my issue...I think...but I bought an iacv at the junkyard just in case.

To answer your question about why yours does what it does...well, you mave have a bad iacv, or some diaphram doesn't open/close properly.
Your issue is classic fitv issue. But your fix should've solved it..hmmmmm
As I read this awesome IACV article(Dang this is good stuff), it says as you begin to set the curb idle before you even mess with the IACV, you need to unplug the IACV first. AND by doing so you will get a code. When I unplug mine, I get no CEL or code. Whats up with that?
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Old 01-02-2015, 11:16 PM
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Re: 01' SH M/T cold start idle issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by cityjack View Post
Thanks for the light reading Byk. I watch ALOT of Eric the car guy and his buddy Scanner Danner too. Seems Scanner says he had best luck when the FITV was a turn and a half out from fully seated. The funny thing is, I've had a 3rd gen 1990 B20 for like five years now also. Anytime it would start to bounce like once a year religiously, I'd turn the FITV back in to fully seated and I was good for a year again.

Its weird man. Like you said, classic FITV you would think. I'm wondering by the dealership tech messing with the idle was a band-aid to cover the real problem. I think after I put the new throttle body gasket on tomorrow and put it back together if it does not run right, I am going to start from the beginning of the Helms with the idle setting.

Let me ask you something. When the Helms says get the rpms to like 3K until the fans come on, I never get the fans to come on. I just run the car till the gauge on the cluster gets to the point where it always is while running, then do whatever the Helms has me do. Its like 45 - 50 degrees F here during the day. I wonder by the car sitting in the driveway will the fans come on even? Also, when disconnecting the FITV and the IACV I obviously lost a little bit of radiator fluid. Its blue. Like the color of window washer fluid. Trying to get blue fluid from the car parts store ain't happening. Is that some sort of proprietary HONDA fluid? Can I use something else to top off my fluid or even add to my reservoir you think?

Thanks again Byk.

Sid
I think the half turn thing in the fitv is nothing set in stone, but a basic point that works more times than not for the wax meltage...actually you can bypass that sucker altogether with no ill effects other than your cold idle being somewhat lower...

Yes the idle adjust was a band aid...for a broken leg? Nah. Did you try tapping the iacv with a hammer yet?

I use Prestone coolant. It mixes with "any color". My car had red when I got it, then as I did stuff, like you, it was orange in time. Now it's all yellow. I'd have to guess on the blue...sounds like what you said...a proprietory thing. Perhaps google 'blue coolant' and see what happens.

My fans run. But rarely unless I'm in traffic in summer. Just working on it like you, if they run, it' for a few seconds and not very often.

Oh, and my manual don't specify how to adjust idle. But I read somewhere that you turn the screw out until "it touches", which will raise idle speed. Then twist it clockwise (which closes the orifice) until idle returns to normal.

Quote:
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As I read this awesome IACV article(Dang this is good stuff), it says as you begin to set the curb idle before you even mess with the IACV, you need to unplug the IACV first. AND by doing so you will get a code. When I unplug mine, I get no CEL or code. Whats up with that?
I don't get a code either.
I also have an oil lamp that when unplugged still lights...

Don't know..........yet.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead

Last edited by bykfixer; 01-02-2015 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 01-03-2015, 11:16 PM
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Re: 01' SH M/T cold start idle issues

Evening Byk,

Back inside after a rainy day ALL day.

I put my new throttle body gasket on today with new PCV valve and the thoroughly cleaned FITV. The FITV was bottomed out on the seat before I took it apart to clean. I saw on "Eric the car guy" where he said to keep it backed out a half turn. I backed it out a half turn and put it back together. Now at cold startup it bounces more not much but a noticeable increase. Once warm, it runs great.

One thing I did do was as it was warming up and surging(as you suggested) I kind of tapped on the IACV housing with a small plastic mallet. The idle did jump around definitely as I tapped on it, but it went back to and continued to bounce when I was done.

Suppose to rain all day tomorrow. I'll keep trying and keep me updated if you will please as to what you find. Although its outside and back together and getting ready for Mondays workday. It'll be an inside the garage day tomorrow. Got to put my new clutch kit in the 90' 3rd gen.

Keep me posted Byk if you would please. If I may ask, where you located?

Have a night.

Sid
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Old 01-03-2015, 11:47 PM
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Re: 01' SH M/T cold start idle issues

Central Va sid.

I figure on watching 'the band of brothers' and begining a polish process on a power steering pump and dashing out to the shed from time to time to coat some parts...

Today I worked in the drizzle doing maintenance work.

At some point I'm going to remove my intake manifold and clean it, along with the egr ports and probably the egr valve..can't hurt.

Now to that 1990 car...Si?
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead
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Old 01-04-2015, 10:26 PM
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Re: 01' SH M/T cold start idle issues

Central Va? You have to be kidding me? I just relocated to Hckory NC from SWVa. I use to have a farm in Floyd county out about an hour from Blacksburg. I use to live for like 10 years in Concord/Rustburg area if you know where that is. Used to work in Lynchburg. My family still lives in Appomattox/Gladstone. Thats crazy. Where in SWVA? We need to hook up sometime.

After reading that link you gave me about the IACV and what it does, I tried my best to get the idel to stumble today by throwing every load I could at the car. AC, turning the wheels back n forth, brake lights, head lights. Everything at once. The idle stayed rock solid. This of course was after I took it to the store for gas. Totally warmed up. I am beginning to think that the IACV is ok and maybe its the FITV somehow. I need to start from the beginning and eliminate one thing at a time via the Helms.

Have a good night and let me know how you make out with yours.

Sid
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Old 01-04-2015, 11:01 PM
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Re: 01' SH M/T cold start idle issues

Sid, I'm about 1.5 hours south east of appomattox, on the outskirts of petersburg near Ft. Lee. Small world. I worked with folks from hickory the year I lived in greensboro. I worked around the Lynchburg area a while too. Lands time forgot, and anything flat is man made.
I''m a highway inspector, so sometimes working away from home is required.

I have moved around my idle thing for a while. I have a chronic low oil pressure lamp. Now the car has run several HOURS with it on. So I'm chasing electrical gremlins and thinking it's a short causing it. I even unplugged it and it burned brighter. Doh!
A pressure test will take place soon at my dads house. But for now it sits out front at my place and is getting restoration parts installed as I get stuff cleaned, coated with my combo of color schemes or arrive in the mail.

Once I determine there's pressure or not will dictate which direction I go chasing my idle thing. Lots of stuff still to check. Solenoids that control diaphrams in the intake bypass, evap, egr and then the injectors checked for proper flow. In essence the entire induction will get a good going over with vacuum checks and/or electrical testing. Then an egr system scrub.
That's if the motor isn't shot. But I honestly believe as much as it has run, the 4.3 psi or less that activates the pressure lamp would've killed it..running 15-20 minutes at 2500-3000 rpms to test things should have killed it if the pressure is that low I figure.

I'm glad to know you were able to enjoy good ole virginee as long as you did. I like me some north cackalacka...if memory serves there are a couple of good parts sources not far from hickory..I'll look up some old bookmarks and if so pass them on to ya.
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead

Last edited by bykfixer; 01-04-2015 at 11:11 PM.
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