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Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

 
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Old 03-15-2014, 01:34 PM
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Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

Ok. First to Starr I have done lots of research and have searched on this forum, PP, Google, just about anywhere to get information on this situation. I am posting this because from the information I have gathered I don't have a affirmative answer or understanding based on my scenario.

This happened in September 2013 so my lude has been sitting for a while.

I was driving home and driving at a fairly moderate speed (45mph approx) and needed to get a little more oomph to beat a light.

Long story short I accidentally dropped it to 2nd which shot my rpm's up and then I heard a loud pop under the hood. My P/S was gone, then battery light came on, then CEL.
I was only about 1.5 miles from home so I slowed down and went about 15mph the rest of the way.

Once I got home I opened the hood and saw that my crank pulley was really loose and both belts came off the pulley.

The crank pulley Bolt was loose and I was able to take it off by hand. The bolt did not snap and is fine. The pulley pretty much fell off once I removed the bolt and the slot where the woodruff key goes into the pulley was busted and all the splines are completely smooth.

Upon inspecting the woodruff key, bolt threads and area all around where the pulley goes it seems that nothing is scarred or chewed up. I left the pulley off and started the lude to see if it was ticking or had jumped timing, everything was still running perfectly smooth and idle was great.

I ran the CEL to see what it was, and it says it is the Crank Position Sensor.

What I can't figure out is, is there anything majorly wrong or do you think if I buy a new OEM Crank Pulley, OEM Woodruff key and put everything back together, tighten the pulley to the spec's I should be fine. I do know that the crank bolt is ungodly hard to get off so for it to just come so loose I am very concerned.

I am trying to figure out all possibilities before I but a new pulley and just put it on.

Thanks guys
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Old 03-15-2014, 06:52 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

You could always try to just replace it. But with the bolt being loose you might damaged the piece it holds on it. The best way to figure this problem out is just go with what your gutz tell you. you might be right or you might be wrong, the only way to know if anything is truly bad is to take the engine apart and make sure everything measures up like factory. Idk I could be wrong, might be some other way,
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Old 03-15-2014, 11:37 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

my crank bolt came out about 700 miles after I got it back from the shop replacing a burnt valve. first sign I had was my battery light because my alternator belt slipped off. either way, I don't know how it happened except it wasn't tightened down to spec. anyways I stopped immediately and towed it back to the shop. it sounds like you got super lucky if you put everything back together and didn't have any valve wacked out of shape. get a new pulley and a new key, and torque down the bolt yourself.
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Old 03-16-2014, 12:42 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

Might be a deeper problem if you have a crank pos sensor code. I would take the pulley off, timing cover also. If the keyway broke then your lower timing gear is out of position. There's two gear like pulleys behind the cover. Balance belt and timing belt. The crank sensor is basically two magnets mounted around the timing gear. It reads the indented spaces on the back of the gear itself. That's why the sensor is reading the crank postion wrong and giving you a CEL. Or somehow the outside of the gear broke. You need to do more digging. If it was still running your probably in decent shape. No bent valves and what not. The hard part is already done in getting the crank bolt out. Hopefully this helps.
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Old 03-16-2014, 02:18 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

Thanks for the information.I'm fairly decent when it comes to taking things apart and fixing things. I am just really trying to get a better understanding as to what I should really do before I get a new pulley and put it on then still have a underlying problem.

When you say keyway, are you meaning the woodruff key itself or the slot that it goes in to hold everything in time.. what exactly should I be looking for once I get the timing cover off and can get access to where the crank pos sensor is.
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Old 03-16-2014, 02:36 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

Keyway being the slot and the metal piece. When u get in there you'll know if something isn't right. If the sensor is bad, get a Honda one from majestic. The AutoZone or whatever aftermarket dont work. I learned the hard way. You prob are gonna have to take the valve cover off to and make sure the timing belt didnt jump. Hard to diagnose without looking at it.
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Old 03-16-2014, 03:00 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

Sounds like fun. Thanks for the information. Spring/ summer is coming up and it's time to start working on everything and getting it fixed for the warm sunshine.

How hard is the key to remove. I know it sits in the slot to keep everything in sync, but is it a straight key, half moon or any special way to get it out
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Old 03-16-2014, 03:12 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

It can be a pain. Pliers chew it up. It has a tapered shape to it. I would get the timing cover off then see what your dealing with. Worry about the key later. If u have that cel, I bet the sensor got messed up somehow. Or the gear jumped. Could be anything. But with that code something is wrong and the car is in limp mode. See what ur dealing with. You might be going all the way to a timing belt job if u take the balance belt off ur gonna open a can of worms. Its not hard if u stay organized. There's lots of threads around.
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Old 03-16-2014, 04:52 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

Cool. So once I remove the timing cover I should get a better understanding of if there is a bigger problem. I will need to take it off regardless to put in a new crank sensor right
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Old 03-16-2014, 04:56 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

Yup. Good luck. You'll learn a lot. It might be something small or silly. You never know with Hondas.
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Old 03-16-2014, 04:59 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

I appreciate your help. I have a better understanding what route I need to go now to get everything back running again
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Old 03-16-2014, 05:00 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

If anyone has extra insight on the crank position sensors or anything related I'd greatly appreciate the help cause I can never learn too much and never receive too much advise
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Old 03-16-2014, 07:22 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

Since the crank pulley is already off, now's the perfect time to check to make sure the cams and crank are still in time correctly and that the t-belt didn't skip any teeth.
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Old 03-16-2014, 08:41 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

Last winter, I missed a shift and broke my timing belt. At the same time my balancing belt also broke and slapped the crankshaft position sensor which is located on the crankshaft behind the lower timing belt cover. Had to do a head rebuild
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Old 03-17-2014, 02:44 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

eddiejb11

I saw your thread yesterday afternoon and read what happened. So when you take of the timimng belt cover is there actually 2 belts? One for timing and one for the balance shaft? When my pulley broke the engine never died or stalled. It ran the same and idle'd at normal rpm's. Once I got home I was able to crank the car back over and it started right back up. I only cranked it 2 times to make sure it would still crank over and run.

I'm just curious, if the balance shaft broke or the belt would that prevent the motor from cranking over and running?
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Old 03-17-2014, 05:51 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

There's two balance shafts. One belt for those. Then the timing belt which goes to the cams and water pump. If the car runs your probably not in bad shape.
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Old 03-17-2014, 06:55 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

Quote:
Originally Posted by BParks View Post
eddiejb11

I saw your thread yesterday afternoon and read what happened. So when you take of the timimng belt cover is there actually 2 belts? One for timing and one for the balance shaft? When my pulley broke the engine never died or stalled. It ran the same and idle'd at normal rpm's. Once I got home I was able to crank the car back over and it started right back up. I only cranked it 2 times to make sure it would still crank over and run.

I'm just curious, if the balance shaft broke or the belt would that prevent the motor from cranking over and running?


That's cuz the belts that broke were only for your power steering, air conditioning, and alternator. Your car "can" run without those, but only temporarily until it drains your battery.
The two belts under the timing cover are your timing and balancer belts. Since your engine starts right up, you're probably good.
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Old 03-17-2014, 08:11 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

Quote:
Originally Posted by twokexlv6coupe View Post
That's cuz the belts that broke were only for your power steering, air conditioning, and alternator. Your car "can" run without those, but only temporarily until it drains your battery.
The two belts under the timing cover are your timing and balancer belts. Since your engine starts right up, you're probably good.

That's what I'm most concerned about is how bad I may have messed it up. I'm not so much worried about the P/S and Alternator belts or the Crank Pulley. I'm most worried about what's on the inside.

What would happen or what would it do if the balance belt broke?

Lets say if the timing didn't jump, the balance didn't break; what could make the crank pos sensor pop up on a CEL? Hypothetical of course because I won't know till I start taking parts off.

Could the crank pulley being so loose and wobbling like a mad man cause it to throw the crank pos sensor?

I will probably start taking parts off tomorrow because it will be in the 70's. I had a garage to put the lude in and work but some things happened and now there is a apartment worth of furniture in my garage thanks to sister in law
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Old 03-18-2014, 04:33 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

Ok everyone. I have the valve cover off, the top timing cover off and have the bottom timing cover unbolted. I can't get it out from the motor, do I need to remove the motor mount to get it out?

Next, the Timing belt is still tight and the 2 cams are lined up both facing slightly left. I'll post a picture. The timing belt looks to have been done some time before I got the car because it is a Gator Belt.

The balance shafts look to be in line with each other as well, I am able to move the cover around and see inside fairly easy. The belt is tight and is not frayed or broke. It too is a Gator belt.

My crank key is a little chewed up towards the end where the pulley grinded it.

Question is.... Should everything be in exact alignment. I know if I'm correct, if the crank keyway is TDC then the 2 cams should be TDC as well right? If they aren't then something is out of time correct.
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Old 03-18-2014, 07:02 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

How much further did you get? I usually put a jack under the oil pan. On a block of wood. Support the motor, and you can undo the motor mount. Can be a pain. Did you see your cps? (Crank pos) did it look messed up? Maybe with the harmonic balancer (crank pulley) being so loose it could have been messing with the sensor. You might be just lucky and nothing bad happened.
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Old 03-18-2014, 07:25 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

I had to stop and clean up my tools because my daughter had soccer practice. I was able to see most of the sensor and it didn't look cut up or any of the bracket missing. Everything too me really looked in good shape. Tomorrow morning I'm getting up early and will use another jack to get the motor supported and take the mount off. Once I get that off I should be able to get the rest of the cover off and truely see how the CPS looks. I hope I just got super super lucky on the pulley flying around like crazy that it was jacking with the sensor
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Old 03-18-2014, 07:26 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

I will be able to post pics of the cams, balance shafts and their positions when I get home
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Old 03-18-2014, 07:38 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

I bet ur in good shape. Posting pics of the cams wont help until u turn the motor to tdc. (Top dead center). There little notches on the cams besides the arrows. I put a ruler or staight edge on the the head where ur valve cover sit and line them to that on the exhaust side. Then check your arrow on the lower timing gear. If the belt is tight it prob didnt jump. Just trying to help. At least u have 70 degree temps. Im freezing up here working on my pos.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:12 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

Ahh true, IIRC the snout of the crank prevents you from simply pulling the lower cover straight off. Yea to completely remove it you gotta take off the motor mount and let the engine drop a coupla inches.

Yes crank keyway and cam arrows should all be TDC at the same time. ONLY ROTATE THE MOTOR COUNTER-CLOCKWISE!!!!

With the lower cover off, you'll be able to unplug/bolt the CPS, inspect/clean the contacts with bra-kleen, and also inspect the lower timing gear that has the 2 teeth that trip the contacts.

You're most likely fine tho since you started the motor and it ran just fine w/o the ps/ac belts.

If everything looks fine w/ the cover off, clear the code, (personally, I'd) put the pulley and motor mount back on without the covers on, that way IF the CPS code comes back, you don't gotta bother pulling the covers back off again.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:48 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

Awesome. Thanks for all the advise. So how would you turn the motor to TDC manually?? I haven't really gone this deep into timing before so I honestly don't know..

So lets say if everything is great and the timing is on spot. Would I just need to replace the CPS and get a new pulley and new key. Put everything back together and try to see if it runs. I know that there are so many variables that could still be hidden. But I'm talking in theory.

Also, I drained my coolant because it needs to be flushed anyways. The coolant was clean and still bright green. I also drained all my oil because I want to do an oil change since the car has been sitting. I filtered all the oil and there was absolutely zero metal flakes or shavings in the oil so that's good news
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:49 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

Awesome. Thanks for all the advise. So how would you turn the motor to TDC manually?? I haven't really gone this deep into timing before so I honestly don't know..

So lets say if everything is great and the timing is on spot. Would I just need to replace the CPS and get a new pulley and new key. Put everything back together and try to see if it runs. I know that there are so many variables that could still be hidden. But I'm talking in theory.

Also, I drained my coolant because it needs to be flushed anyways. The coolant was clean and still bright green. I also drained all my oil because I want to do an oil change since the car has been sitting. I filtered all the oil and there was absolutely zero metal flakes or shavings in the oil so that's good news
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Old 03-18-2014, 10:32 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

Hey-
I had the pulley come off of my old motor (with 274K miles) 2, maybe 3 times. If you look around, it happens to other folks, too. It never did more than make me tow it to be fixed. I finally safety wired the bolt to the pulley.
This approach does not seem to have gained much traction on this (and another) forum, but it should be a sure way to guard against it happening again.
Replace the pulley, Woodruff key, and bolt. You should be ok.
BTW, pulley bolt on my new engine is safety wired.
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Old 03-18-2014, 10:44 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

What does it get safety wired to? I've only seen and heard of that stuff being used on race cars. I know its good on two piece brake rotors. Interesting. You can turn a motor easily with the plugs out. Put the crank bolt in. Maybe hit it with the impact lightly so it doesnt come out cause u have to turn it counter clock like twoexlcoupe said. Or turn it with the cam gear bolt.
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:39 AM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

Drill 2 holes in the pulley (easy), and a hole through head of the bolt (need a drill press, and something to hold the bolt). Put wire through the bolt, twist it (a lot), and put the two ends of the wire through the two holes in the pulley. Twist again. Do the whole thing so the bolt can NOT turn. Leave enough room to get a crank holding/turning tool in the pulley.
Time was when almost everything on a race engine had to be safety wired, or it shook off. No reason we can't use the method for squelching a common problem.

PS- PM me your email, if you want a pic…..

Last edited by Flip2; 03-19-2014 at 11:40 AM. Reason: add PS
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Old 03-19-2014, 01:01 PM
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Re: Crank Pulley!! I'm very confused

Or if you have the honda crank pulley holder, all you need to do is put the pulley on (not even the bolt) and turn it via holder and 1/2" breaker bar/ratchet.
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