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Mild n/a engine build. Need info

 
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Old 01-22-2014, 09:10 AM
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Mild n/a engine build. Need info

Look for my thread in the noob sub forum for my back story.
This is no pipe dream.
I have brought my flame suit. Saying that I believe in to each his own and if someone wants to buy a body kit for their car before a intake that's cool with me I hope it looks good and it's your money spend it how you want.
Just sayin.

Plans for the track one day. Wanting to go to proving grounds next year.

Been lurkin lude forums for about a month now gathering all the info I can on this car and honestly it's a bit overwhelming so I decided to stick to one forum for info. You guys know your stuff and I think I know how this goes so...

Goals:
Not entirely sure on this. I used to drive a 04 cts-v and that thing had balls but this car is a different kind of fast. I don't need 330whp like the ls6 but I was thinking 220-240whp would satisfy my need for speed as a dominos driver. So saying that I put on something like 2k a month in miles one the car. I know blah blah blah that's such a waste for a car your going to beat up, I just see it as an opportunity to spend more time inside my prelude, driving it and working on it. Plus mileage rembursment is 55.5cents a mile and all that turns into lovin for the lude after taxes haha (correct me if I'm wrong)
Also I have a buddy with a Acura cl and we have yet to race, I'd love to beat him. Possible with mild na build?

Boy I write a lot huh? We'll I hope you made it this far. The set up I'm thinking so far:

-Crowler valve springs
-Skunk2 cams 1or2 not sure since I'm going to be driving around so much. I don't want to be drinking gas.. But I do know that these cams give higher revs and I decided that's what I want
-Header? I was thinking hyteck replica but I think I'll find a group buy for something else at least decent like the hytecks. Defiantly 3in tho.
-Exhaust? Idk yet, whatever is going to sound LIKE,(not the same ha that's not possible) a v8. I don't want a tin can full of angry bees attached to my car.
-Intake manifold? Thinking euro r butttt how much moding with this require? They're the best for the power and but I'm doing all the work myself/with a friend. If I can't do it what else then? Heard skunk2's is junk.

Now here's the thing, my car is a base with a trans that's going out so I'm dropping in a 5spd with an aftermarket LSD after taxes get back and I figured out I need to do my timing belt water pump and valve cover seal/gasket. Sooo I'm already taking the head off so why not build it right? But I don't think I'll have the money for about a month for headers and exhaust/ tune.

Input?
Advice?
Questions?
I want them all...

I'm writing this at 7am and I haven't slept plus I'm a horrible speller so please excuse me if I make no sense a times haha
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Old 01-22-2014, 09:35 AM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

You haven't even mentioned any type of ECU for tuning. The stock ECU is not programmable. There's no way you're going to make that kind of power safely without tuning.

Why are you taking the head off? From the work you're describing, I can't figure out why you'd take the head off.

For NA, your best bet is the EuroR manifold, but it's not an entirely bolt on affair. You have to make some modifications. Rosko sells modified EuroR manifold kits that are ready to bolt on. I also have one of his EuroR manifolds that I'll likely sell.

For a header, the Hytech replica is the cheapest solution (although I don't generally promote buying replicas...). Official HyTech replica H22 Tri-Y header Group Buy!! - Honda Prelude Forum : Honda Prelude Forums

For an exhaust, most off the shelf solutions aren't very good, IMO and they're smaller than I would use. I used a 3" fairly open exhaust on a mild NA build (OEM pistons, rods, cams, intake manifold, etc) and made 216 WHP.

On the Skunk2 cams, if you're sticking close to OEM static compression, the Pro1s are a good choice. Pro2s are going to want more compression.

Pick valve springs to match your cam selection. You'll also need to choose your oil carefully. Aftermarket cams and stiffer valve springs have been known to ruin more than a few sets of exhaust cams and rockers with motor oils that have lower zinc, et al anti-wear contents.

You'll also want some type of intake (AEM CAI is the de facto standard).
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:01 AM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

Do the tranny first.
8 zillion horsepower won't go any faster than 4 hp if the tranny is broke.

Fak that guys integra! You have a prelude. Car & Driver sports car of the year under $30k all 5 years made.
Red light to red light a bicycle is gonna beat ya if you don't get that tranny fixed.

5th Gen Auto Transmission Failure Guide
When you get that done then get started on the engine.

http://preludecentral.com/index.php/topic,780.0.html
^^ A how to properly build up an H22 basics thread.

71 is right on the money.
Zinc. Oh how I miss that stuff.
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Old 01-22-2014, 03:17 PM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

Quote:
Originally Posted by praylood47 View Post

-Crowler valve springs
-Skunk2 cams 1or2 not sure since I'm going to be driving around so much. I don't want to be drinking gas.. But I do know that these cams give higher revs and I decided that's what I want
-Header? I was thinking hyteck replica but I think I'll find a group buy for something else at least decent like the hytecks. Defiantly 3in tho.
-Exhaust? Idk yet, whatever is going to sound LIKE,(not the same ha that's not possible) a v8. I don't want a tin can full of angry bees attached to my car.
-Intake manifold? Thinking euro r butttt how much moding with this require? They're the best for the power and but I'm doing all the work myself/with a friend. If I can't do it what else then? Heard skunk2's is junk.

Now here's the thing, my car is a base with a trans that's going out so I'm dropping in a 5spd with an aftermarket LSD after taxes get back and I figured out I need to do my timing belt water pump and valve cover seal/gasket. Sooo I'm already taking the head off so why not build it right? But I don't think I'll have the money for about a month for headers and exhaust/ tune.

Coming from an 04 cts-v and your friend wants to now race your prelude? Guess he needed something to keep up with. Your Prelude won't be in the low 13's as your V was, even with the mods you're looking into.

Many drive their cars 1k+ a month, it's not an issue.


Crower* and what about retainers? choose these wisely as they can cause issues if not pared with your cams, as 71dsp mentioned

S2 has tuner series and pro series cams - choose wisely. Higher the cam the higher the lift, that's what you'll hear through the exhaust the most at idle. But these are 4 bangers, don't expect anything close to a v8 sound even with a good exhaust. You will guzzle gas once you start this build anyway....

Hytech* Remember, it's a replica... so a copy of a proven design but without any thought put into it. 3" collector is the largest you'd get out of it, tube diameter itself is nowhere near that size. I would say get a vibrant and support an actual company that contributes to the community

exhaust - see s2 response. For power, custom is the best route, and far from cheap. It will be loud. And not a good kind for a delivery driver.

Intake manifold - yes, euro-r is better for mild n/a builds. Go with a Rosko modified one as 71dsp suggested

Transmission - If you have a spare transmission, i recommend sending it to syncrotech and have them toss in an LSD, as well as new syncros and seals. Otherwise you'll be pulling the transmission again once that sucker starts missing 3rd gear and leaking all over the place.

No need to pull the head for any of that. Timing belt and water pump - be sure to use OEM Honda parts and don't forget a new timing belt tensioner. Also replace the balance shaft seals, cam seals, and front crankshaft seal while you're at it. When the transmission is removed for the LSD or whatever you decide - install a new rear main seal and clutch/clutch master cylinder/slave cylinder. Valve cover seal, sparkplug seals, and cam plug seal can all be done at the same time without any issue at all. Head does not need to be removed for anything.


x2 on needing this all tuned. Remaining obd2 or converting to obd1 also need to be considered based on how your inspection is.


There's a lot more to be considered, I always suggest maintenance first. Doing all this work will be useless if your balljoint, axle, or something else ends up failing. If it happens to be on its way out now - fix it.
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Old 01-22-2014, 03:48 PM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

One question, why NA and not FI?
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Old 01-22-2014, 06:11 PM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

Sounds like a an awful lot of work just to deliver pizzas. For what you'll spend in parts alone to get 200 to the wheels, let alone 250 to any part of the car, you could buy at least two running and certified sunfires, neons, cavaliers etc., which is what I see most pizza delivery guys driving.

Building a high HP Prelude (or any car) to deliver pizza, just seems like overkill, unless dominoes changed their policy to 13 seconds or it's free.
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Old 01-22-2014, 08:46 PM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

I take it you're h22?

I'd PERSONALLY go:
  • Micro-polished and balanced h23 crank (with light-weight pulley, also balanced)
  • h23 rods
  • h22 pistons
  • EuroR intake mani
  • Power steering delete
  • A/c under-drive pulley
  • Alternator under-drive pulley
  • AEM CAI with blox velocity stack, AEM dry-flow filter, bypass valve, and the SURE Elementshield.
  • Bigger cams (Brian Crower)
  • Stronger springs/retainers
  • Upgraded valves
  • 3 angle valve job
  • Port/polishes/flow-tested head

As for the exhaust, if you want it to sound like a v8 you'll have some custom work to do. First off, with any header that we have for the preludes, thety are all equal length (to my knowledge), now a 4 cyl, with 1 bank, and equal length header, will almost always sound the same/similar to all others. To get a nice sound, we'll have to sacrifice a little power, and take a hit from the Subaru book, and go unequal length headers. They'll give us a rumble that is similar to a Subie rumble, which is in turn similar to a v8 rumble.

Again, by going unequal, we will lose a little power over equal, but we should pick up a little low end, and it should still flow better than stock, which means it'd still bump up power, just not as much as an equal length header would.

So, my personal exhaust for this, would be, custom 2.5' mandrel bent unequal length header, one high-flow 2.5" in/out cat, 2.5 mandrel bent tubing, into 1 Flowmaster Hushpower DBX 2.5" in/out and a dual 3" y tip

That exhaust would give great flow, keep it legal and sound great.

And obviously tuning would be a smart idea too. I've probably missed stuff, but that's probably be an easy 240-250 whp N/A h23 VTEC build
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Old 01-22-2014, 09:15 PM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBCC View Post
  • Micro-polished and balanced h23 crank (with light-weight pulley, also balanced)
  • A/c under-drive pulley
A/C underdrive pulley?

Also, why would you use a light weight crank pulley? What brand are you recommending?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBCC View Post
And obviously tuning would be a smart idea too. I've probably missed stuff, but that's probably be an easy 240-250 whp N/A h23 VTEC build
Tuning wouldn't just be a smart idea, it would be mandatory.

If you think it'll really make that much power, why would you use a 2.5" exhaust??
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:53 PM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBCC View Post
I take it you're h22?

I'd PERSONALLY go:
  • Micro-polished and balanced h23 crank (with light-weight pulley, also balanced)
  • h23 rods
  • h22 pistons
  • EuroR intake mani
  • Power steering delete
  • A/c under-drive pulley
  • Alternator under-drive pulley
  • AEM CAI with blox velocity stack, AEM dry-flow filter, bypass valve, and the SURE Elementshield.
  • Bigger cams (Brian Crower)
  • Stronger springs/retainers
  • Upgraded valves
  • 3 angle valve job
  • Port/polishes/flow-tested head


And obviously tuning would be a smart idea too. I've probably missed stuff, but that's probably be an easy 240-250 whp N/A h23 VTEC build
How about piston rings... they don't like the FRM sleeves and the block could more than likely use a hone.

No clutch upgrades?

Keeping balance shafts although the motor would be out?

maintenance?

No cam gears?

All that for a 3" intake, that is already oversized for a factory 60mm throttle body, going into a good flowing IM, which would need port matching for the head.

a/c and alternator pulleys wouldn't do anything besides look pretty. And you don't want to change the crank pulley to anything without a harmonic balancer.

240-250whp is a VERY generous guess. Some stuff? You're missing a lot of stuff. Fuel hasn't even been discussed.


The daily ability and reliability of the car would be destroyed with half of that build.

Easily at least 8k in parts/labor for not much of a gain.
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:56 PM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

Has anybody but me noticed op says his transmission is the autotragic? And that it's giving him problems?

Now I realize he says he's gonna swap...
just sayin'....
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...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
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Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
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I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

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Old 01-22-2014, 11:14 PM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

My goodness, my head is spinning!
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:28 AM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

I've got $6K into my 'mild' N/A build and I got a corrected 214hp at the wheels using 11.5:1 CR and Skunk2 Pro2 cams on Hondata.

What did I do wrong? Tune? Parts? Or is this '240 at the wheels easy' think hocus pocus?
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Old 01-23-2014, 02:24 AM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

Quote:
Originally Posted by 71dsp View Post
A/C underdrive pulley?

Also, why would you use a light weight crank pulley? What brand are you recommending?



Tuning wouldn't just be a smart idea, it would be mandatory.

If you think it'll really make that much power, why would you use a 2.5" exhaust??
Sarcasm should have been implied to the tuning being smart. I haven't researched much on the pulleys, however if using a h23 crank the pulley would have to be swapped to a an h22 pulley, meaning it'd be smart to just go ahead and upgrade it while you're at it. Also any exhaust over 2.5" for an N/A build under 500hp is usually overkill. After 500 is where you'd want to go up, especially if they're mandrel bent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wing8806 View Post
How about piston rings... they don't like the FRM sleeves and the block could more than likely use a hone.

No clutch upgrades?

Keeping balance shafts although the motor would be out?

maintenance?

No cam gears?

All that for a 3" intake, that is already oversized for a factory 60mm throttle body, going into a good flowing IM, which would need port matching for the head.

a/c and alternator pulleys wouldn't do anything besides look pretty. And you don't want to change the crank pulley to anything without a harmonic balancer.

240-250whp is a VERY generous guess. Some stuff? You're missing a lot of stuff. Fuel hasn't even been discussed.


The daily ability and reliability of the car would be destroyed with half of that build.

Easily at least 8k in parts/labor for not much of a gain.
I was in class, and listed what came to the top of my head. And why is it so hard to assume that with a build like that one could go from aproximately 190 whp (if it's h22) to about 240-250 when it's increasing compression and displacement, as well as a complete exhaust and intake? I know of header systems for other cars that net 15 whp NOT tuned.

And I'm sorry I did not have my plan sheets for both n/a and FI, in front of me that I'll probably end up doing after my Mazda is done. Not to mention those are the starting base for a build. If you want to get technical, I could go back and update with every little thing I'd replace, and with what. But I doubt it'd be even worth it though because no one would take the time to read the whole thing. OP asked for input and advice, and I was just giving my input for a starting place.
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Old 01-23-2014, 02:50 AM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

So that was a lot to take in at once haha. Uhm guys I think some of you are a little off topic now.
What ecu should I go with? I'm up in mn parts are kinda hard to find from where I'm looking.
From what I read hytech is the way to go with custom exhaust.
Ok so hp difference from stage 1 to 2 cams? I'll get valve spring retainers and springs to match(more research haha)
Doing suspension replacements this weekend. Tie rods are shot same with rear breaks.

I forgot to mention my car only has 146xxx right now but the previous two owners hadnt done anything to the car save brakes and oil so I'm in the process of replacing everything that needs replacing before I build this spring.

Can I upload pics from my iPhone? I'd love for you guys to see my baby:D
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Old 01-23-2014, 03:26 AM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

H22a1 has 190 BHP stock and about 170-175 WHP jus sayin
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Old 01-23-2014, 03:27 AM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

Or maybe less than 170, typically 15% fwd transmission loss on these cars so ~164 WHP
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Old 01-23-2014, 09:01 AM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

if you want some help without the be attached to it, pm me. I literally can't even begin to start helping you in this thread with all the above info (from some) being so misleading/wrong.
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Old 01-23-2014, 09:28 AM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

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Originally Posted by BigBCC View Post
I haven't researched much on the pulleys, however if using a h23 crank the pulley would have to be swapped to a an h22 pulley, meaning it'd be smart to just go ahead and upgrade it while you're at it.
Upgrade it to what? A solid hub underdrive crank pulley? That's a really bad idea.

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Also any exhaust over 2.5" for an N/A build under 500hp is usually overkill. After 500 is where you'd want to go up, especially if they're mandrel bent.
You sure about that? I had great results with a 3" exhaust on a mild H22 build (216WHP on all stock internals), and so have others.

Granted this isn't the best comparison, but shows some good results.
3" Catback Exhaust on Stock JDM H22A (Dyno) - Honda-Tech
Skunk2 exhaust vs 3" on a mild H22A build.


Tuned 2.25" vs 3"


Or how about a 2.5" exhaust vs. an open header. Surely the open header would be worse, right? Not quite.
IS THERE A POINT IN WHICH 3" EXHAUST BECOMES OK FOR AN N/A BUILD (B20) - Page 3 - Honda-Tech



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Originally Posted by 98vtec View Post
if you want some help without the be attached to it, pm me. I literally can't even begin to start helping you in this thread with all the above info (from some) being so misleading/wrong.
I'd take him up on his offer. Blake knows his stuff. :)
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Old 01-23-2014, 09:40 AM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

what a mess this thread is...
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Reading this thread was like watching pulp fiction the first time...

Cool quote Utopia.
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Old 01-23-2014, 10:02 AM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

Fix the tranny first.

Now with that big @$s 8 cylinder, sure a few parts added will jump your horsepower to rocketship mode. But you are trying to gain some 15-20+% horsepower with half the cylinders.

Can be done. But...


It aint for the low budget crowd.

I swear I've seen this thread before...
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welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
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Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
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I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

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Old 01-23-2014, 11:15 AM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

All i wanted to post was this for his mild setup:



Flaming over

From CTS v to Prelood? You lost 2 cylinders and that grin over your chin. There isn't a sensible way to produce umph without going turbo. Blake and 71dsp and Wing8808 have done extensive research and work, but don't you wanna make your own car? I'd be pissed if I was just shadowing somebody's whip.

Unlike GM, there aren't shops making custom loppy cams with extreme lsa's and dozens of exhaust manifolds or even crazy valvetrain mods. There are enough, but not in comparison.
And you need a tune and manual transmission.

Pizza delivery is HIGHLY DUBIOUS. Nobody I know builds a honda, even mildly to tortue it's ass delivering pizzas. You can do that in a maxima or a camry v6 from the 90's , even a crown vic is a better choice. Not baggin on your choice in Prelude, but to make this mild car to prostock one day, turbocharging is the most sound approach, and your current prelude won't take it.
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Old 01-23-2014, 04:00 PM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

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Originally Posted by Sideswipe SI View Post
From CTS v to Prelood? You lost 2 cylinders and that grin over your chin.

You sure about that math, Chris??



"Modding a Honda isn't like modding a Chevy, where you can clean out the ashtray and gain 40whp".
Think about that statement long and hard, cuz it's true.
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Old 01-23-2014, 07:22 PM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

Wut maht? Nahmeen?

I was thinking of the regular CTS, where even that V6 felt nice under the heel

But thanks for pointing that out.
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SURGEON GENERAL WARNING:
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Old 01-23-2014, 08:13 PM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

(Winston West voice) I see it. Tsssss. It's the future...
Pizza guy hailing a taxi...

6 o'clock news babe says.
Today in other news a pizza delivery driver was car jacked at gunpoint in an otherwise quiet suburban neighborhood. Witnesses say the driver was forecably removed from the car and the lone gunman was overheard saying 'you should've fixed the transmission first'. The young driver was quoted as saying 'I wish I still had the CTS'. Now to sports with Kenny...
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
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Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
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Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead

Last edited by bykfixer; 01-23-2014 at 10:06 PM.
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:46 AM
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Re: Mild n/a engine build. Need info

This is the best thread ever...
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