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Old 02-15-2012, 09:11 PM
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Throw in your advice Please?

Ok, so for the last week I've been reading, posting, annoying some of you, re posting and more reading about my options for my Lude. It being an SH my "power" upgrade options are limited as well as my turning. Everyone said I need to figure out what I wanted out of my Lude, so I think I have an answer. Please throw in your advice on how to achieve my overall goal.

I don't want crazy HP...just a little more from the 0-80 mph range. Everyday driver. My budget isn't really decided yet because I know this will be an ongoing project so my options are really limitless. It is an SH so the ATTS is an issue, but for those of you who have thrown on 50whp upgrades, has it been an issue? I will not be autoxing this or drag. Everyday driver for me.

Next I want to know if lowering my car 1" at the most will give me a different feel? I would love to make the car just a little bit lower, make it look even, maybe improve the ride quality, but I don't mind feeling like its on rails either. I have zero experience in suspension upgrades.

Im going for 17" rims. Advice on tires would be nice. On my last Lude I always bought Federals from Schwab and never had a problem with them. Some say tires make the ride, for me growing up we drove whatever we had until the wheels came off, so my experience with luxury Tires is limited.

I've mentioned my interest in the type S motor, the price varies on the internet. I would go longblock and get matching trans with it for peace of mind. I can always sell my motor that I pull, it only has 66k on it. Some say its a waste of money, some say they would do it again. If I went that route I would probably dedicate my car to becoming a LHD Type S and buy all the interior as needed and correct badges yadi yadi yadi.

I know it all comes down to personal preference, but I am asking for experienced thoughts here. I've never tuned. I've never raced. I've never modded a car. I look at the forums about cluster gauge mods and am in awe of what people do in their free time. One thing is for sure, I will be doing almost anything I can by myself or at my mechanics shop with his help. Some say the car will run fine on a 4-5psi turbo without any mods other than tuning. I have never ridden in a turbo'd car other than an audi so I don't know if that psi would even give me a feel of more power.

So essentially...I am a newb. Teach me...please/thank you.
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Old 02-16-2012, 12:02 AM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

Unless you're boosting or building the **** out of that motor, you don't have to worry about hitting the 250hp mark that messes with the ATTS.

As far as suspension goes, you might as well invest in a set of nice coilovers. That way, you can adjust the height anyway you want it (slam it, raise it in the winter, whatever you need). Just keep in mind that a general rule is this: Lower and firmer = harsher ride.

17" wheels are fine (and what most would consider the largest size you would want on a Prelude). Also you can have the best suspension and braking components in the world on your car, but it all boils down to your tires. Don't skimp on tires. There is a tire review thread around here somewhere, you should search it out, I'm sure there's some good info in there you could use. Personally, I prefer BFGoodrich tires, just my $.02.

If you want Type-S performance...just get yourself a Type-S intake, cams and pistons. Those are the only differences (I think, I've been away for a while lol).

As far as boost goes? Meh, I'm no expert. I'll let someone else (*cough*Neck*cough*) jump in.
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Old 02-16-2012, 01:40 AM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

Have you tried looking at Mugen parts they make ALOT of parts for the SH models more than for the Base model. Try looking at their exhaust it looks and sounds amazing as well as the header.
Intake wise try looking at the cold air, short ram, V2's and even the Type S intake with K&N filter does wonders.
Suspension wise dbd is right lower doesn't mean better its actually worse if you get it to low you gotta find the right height. try coil overs a good brand! or just performance springs and sway bars. Strut bars also improve the suspension.
As for Tires DON'T go cheap buy the best that your money can buy look at Falken, Toyo, Bf Goodrich, Goodyear, and so on.
Ignition wise you should try upgrading it for some NGK's if it doesn't already have any. NGK wireset, upgrade the cap and rotor. Helps the Acceleration and RPM's.
Engine wise have you looked at pulleys, cam gears, throttle bodies, throttle body spacers.
Finally if your gonna upgrade your engine upgrade your brakes as well try looking at the Hawk performance HPS or the EBC's greenstuff, redstuff, yellow stuff. and also look at either slotted or cross drilled and slotted rotors.
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Old 02-16-2012, 02:10 AM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

Thanks guys. I do have the Type S intake and the NGK upgrade. First two things I did. I will def look into the so far give advice. I also didn't put that much credit on tires, but it's good to know.
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Old 02-16-2012, 03:13 AM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

Intake/header/exhaust

Go simple. You and me are almost in the same boat. I'm a daily driver. Hp to me is whatever. Smooth low rides my forte. If you want more power than I/h/e then its time to pack a punch w boost
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Old 02-16-2012, 03:52 AM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MUGENBB4JDM View Post
Have you tried looking at Mugen parts they make ALOT of parts for the SH models more than for the Base model. Try looking at their exhaust it looks and sounds amazing as well as the header.
mugen catback is expensive and its really restrictive. not a good choice. and you can get better headers as well with cheaper


Quote:
Originally Posted by MUGENBB4JDM View Post
Intake wise try looking at the cold air, short ram, V2's and even the Type S intake with K&N filter does wonders.
no need to he has type s intake already

Quote:
Originally Posted by MUGENBB4JDM View Post
Strut bars also improve the suspension.
didnt see much difference when I got my front upper strut

Quote:
Originally Posted by MUGENBB4JDM View Post
Engine wise have you looked at pulleys, cam gears, throttle bodies
pulley kits are.... mysterious. some say that they improve lap times in track cars like 0.01 secs but dont know
is it true. I have aem pulleys but....they only effect by making engine rev SLIGHTLY better. very slightly.

about TB's. Im not familiar this area yet. I have 66mm here waiting but we're installing it at end of this month (in dyno), but Im
pretty sure that he doesnt need one/new, since stock 60mm is good for 250hp

tire size should be something like 215/40/17, doesnt rub even with little lowering... just make sure that offset is 45-50

BC Racing BR Type Coilover for 92-96 Honda Prelude - Honda - BC Racing Superstore

theres some track car proven coilovers for you (yes I always link this)..been running with these almost a year now myself. they fit sh and base, dont worry if there reads for "92-96" ludes.
I have also eibach's camber kit(s), thats the all what you should do to your suspension.

again, you should get like a vibrant header and some nice catback with that suspension and 17's. after those if you want tot get more power.....sell your car and get some 4wd turbo

Last edited by TypeT; 02-16-2012 at 03:59 AM.
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Old 02-16-2012, 03:53 AM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

Yeah dude like DBD said, it's a task and a half just to get to 200whp, much less 250, unless you're going the forced-induction route, which is another task and a half itself anyway. I've researched the hell out of what I can do to make more power on top of the typical I/H/E, and even a fully built stage 2 valvetrain MIGHT get me to 210-220 at the wheels. That's being extremely hopeful on my part as well. Here's what I'm doing;

Type-S Intake
Euro-R intake manifold
410cc Acura RDX injectors
Skunk2 Pro2 cams, springs, and retainers
Supertech 1-piece nitride coated intake and exhaust valves
Hytech replica header
3in mandrel-bent exhaust
Tuned on Hondata s300
ACT 12lb flywheel

Now, I've recently learned that a stage 2 valvetrain will actually make less power than a stage 1 unless I have a built block due to the stock compression ratio, so for this I'm currently researching what I can do to the block by way of type-s pistons. I'm hoping those will bump me into the 230whp range. Given, I'm at 5500-ft elevation, so this is my uncorrected WHP goal.

As you can see, there's not a whole lot more you can do to a motor without delving into some real customization. Another thing you should research is ATTS wtq limitations. F/I will increase your torque ratings much quicker than going N/A, so have you (or anyone for that matter) considered the fact that it might be a specific torque level that throws the ATTS, not necessarily horsepower? Something to think about..

Hope this sheds some light on your ATTS limit worries.

-Linds
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:06 AM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

^ he cannot really do those thing because of atts

and those pro2's are pretty useless without block build, they are high rev cams and your stock bottom cant handle that much rev where those cams make all the power. so you have to get VERY strong bottom with them

and replika headers... knock offs are always knock offs, dont like replika-idea that much

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I've researched the hell out of what I can do to make more power on top of the typical I/H/E, and even a fully built stage 2 valvetrain MIGHT get me to 210-220 at the wheels.
- dc-crap header, 60mm exhaust with hi flow cat, cai, skunk2 IM, pulley kit, ported head, chipped ecu - 224hp

Last edited by TypeT; 02-16-2012 at 04:10 AM.
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:11 AM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

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Originally Posted by TypeT View Post
^ he cannot really do those thing because of atts

and those pro2's are pretty useless without block build, they are high rev cams and your stock bottom cant handle that much rev where those cams make all the power. so you have to get VERY strong bottom with them

and replika headers... knock offs are always knock offs, dont like replika-idea that much
what if he used ARP bolts and studs and pro2s with the oversized type-s pistons? then he could rev higher without popping and increase the powerband
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:16 AM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

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Originally Posted by SoFlaKidd View Post
what if he used ARP bolts and studs and pro2s with the oversized type-s pistons? then he could rev higher without popping and increase the powerband
I think he should get better rods too and stronger timing belt just in case
oversized pistons...errr I wouldnt mess with the block that much. just basic honing,
Ive heard horror stories about those block borings gone horribly wrong.

does stock oilpump work well in that high rpms?

Last edited by TypeT; 02-16-2012 at 04:20 AM.
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:43 AM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

By listing my plans, I'm making a point as to what it would take to override the ATTS.

I only listed the things that will help with power (forgot to list my TB), of course there's other stuff that goes into it. ARP studs are a must, I'll be changing the connecting rods as well, new clutch, and eventually transmission stuff i.e. synchros, etc. If I was at sea level it'd be much easier to attain my HP goals, but coming up this high in altitude, I'm sacrificing about 15-17% HP. So with my 220-230HP uncorrected goal, that would actually be closer to 260whp at sea level. My torque will presumptively be quite a bit lower, maybe 180-190?

So, OP, don't think that this is just a parts list you need to complete, I'm just throwing my knowledge out there. HOWEVER, given that this is still an incomplete project, my expected numbers could be even more inaccurate. This is what hours and hours of reading and researching over the past 2 years and 4 months has yielded me.

As for;
Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeT View Post
^ he cannot really do those thing because of atts
Ummmm..what in particular? The bolt-ons? The internals? The tuning? I just listed at least 1 part from every part of the engine that has to do with power gains, so you can't just point at my post with a ^^ and say that won't work.

I'm not as familiar with OBD2 as I am OBD1, but I'd have to assume the tuning process would do away with the ATTS control, which in turn would make the installation of a mechanical LSD more attractive and thus negate any power worries you'd have had in the first place. You can find stage 1 valvetrain or even block upgrades from several companies that do not require tuning but can still yield some power increases, though doing so takes a lotta the fun out of it.
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:51 AM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

Logic Tri Y headers? Into a 3" with high flow cat?
If my stock I/M would a Euro R port matched do me any good? Or I've Read skunk2 makes a good I/M.

Heard those mods can make the Lowend power weak? Fact or fiction?
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:56 AM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

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Originally Posted by DueceNikels55 View Post
If my stock I/M would a Euro R port matched do me any good? Or I've Read skunk2 makes a good I/M.
dont mess with IM, with better header and IM you would then need a tune and again you still have that atts

KEEP IT SIMPLE
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:59 AM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

Rosko Racing makes a damn good ported Euro-R, which in my opinion is a better choice than the Skunk2. I'm not sure if Skunk2 corrected the CEL issues with their IM's, but they kinda skimped on the EGR/IACV routing design which made it tougher to pass emissions on OBD2 cars.
With regards to the powerband, the Skunk2 actually peaks higher than the Euro-R on a dyno graph, but the Euro-R sustains power through a larger chunk of the RPM band. So for lowER end power, the Euro-R is a better choice, but yes either can potentially hurt your low-end power. This is where tuning has a significant advantage.
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Old 02-16-2012, 05:03 AM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

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Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
Rosko Racing makes a damn good ported Euro-R, which in my opinion is a better choice than the Skunk2. I'm not sure if Skunk2 corrected the CEL issues with their IM's, but they kinda skimped on the EGR/IACV routing design which made it tougher to pass emissions on OBD2 cars.
With regards to the powerband, the Skunk2 actually peaks higher than the Euro-R on a dyno graph, but the Euro-R sustains power through a larger chunk of the RPM band. So for lowER end power, the Euro-R is a better choice, but yes either can potentially hurt your low-end power. This is where tuning has a significant advantage.
obd1 swap with skunk2 IM - no problem, here its even emission/carb whatever legal
havent noticed loosing lower torque with it, its better than stock in every way

euro r's are overrated, you can get similar gains by using skunk2 or blacktrax ported IM's ...and last time when I asked that from rosko
he didnt have any euro r's there and there were people before me to waiting to get one... so its not that easy to get it either.
so you have to wait few months + it costs more - its not that much better than those others = not worth of trouble

Last edited by TypeT; 02-16-2012 at 05:13 AM.
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Old 02-16-2012, 05:52 AM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

This isn't meant to be an argument about what makes power and where it makes it. There's plenty of threads with dyno charts and user reviews for that, this is not one of them. Plus, I'm sobering up from a few stouts and a 13hr work day so I probably am remembering wrong. I know the Euro-R is a lot better for midrange power though and had less of an impact on the lower end. I know this because this is the reason I went with it and not the Skunk2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeT View Post
obd1 swap with skunk2 IM - no problem, here its even emission/carb whatever legal
He wants to keep ATTS.


The ATTS doesn't stop working at ~250hp or whatever. It just has a hard time dealing with the extra HP's you're throwing at because around that HP the clutches in the ATTS unit begin slipping. It doesn't just stop working altogether.

I guess you can do whatever you want with regards to power enhancement. The ATTS does not engage if you're driving in a straight line, and you've expressed that you're not interested in autocross so I don't figure you're gonna be flooring it around many corners. So really, the ATTS sounds kinda pointless for you, given it's design intention, and for this I don't think you should be afraid to do what you want with your car.

As for avoiding tuning, there are still plenty of upgrades you can perform if you prefer to maintain the ATTS, it's just the tuning that makes the biggest difference in those changes. Without tuning, you're not getting the most bang for your buck on what you do upgrade. So the obvious I/H/E stuff - a tri-y header with a good flowing exhaust..Kaizenspeed balance shaft elimination..and even look into strictly type-s upgrades like pistons and cams - see if you can do them without having to tune.
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Old 02-16-2012, 06:55 AM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

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Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
and even look into strictly type-s upgrades like pistons and cams - see if you can do them without having to tune.
theyre only going to be downgrade, just mess up your engine. just messes stock ecu up. theres no point of doing those things without tuning, or type s/sir ecu (which I think its kinda hard to get also) - dont know does it work with it anyway, you have to make sure you have exact same parts what that type s have (and it have ported IM and head)

so

a) keep your atts and dont do nothing
b) do that exhaust upgrade and suspension/wheel things and leave it there
c) get rid of atts and do everything you want (means: change engine/get base lude)

PLEASE dont make a new thread like every day, make up your mind, this is pretty pointless and f* frustrating to talk THESE SAME THINGS all over again in difference threads!!
is your plan to make that many threads about this that in some point in some of them somebody "gives you permission" to mod your engine heavily with the atts?
WAKE UP, dude! you have atts there, you cannot really tune your engine, which it requires with serious mods! now you have just to live with it! there you have 3 options, just pick one! Id pick plan B

Last edited by TypeT; 02-16-2012 at 07:08 AM.
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Old 02-16-2012, 01:47 PM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

Not trying to piss people off here, I get what you are saying TypeT, I wasn't really looking for a different answer. Just wanted some advice on the suspension and see if I was asking the wrong question about power.

I'll quit posting...but I think I'm just going to bite the bullet and do an internal upgrade for Turbo. I'm going to do more research about whether leaving my ATTS on will affect it tremendously or not. I really don't give a F if it slips or is just an open differential. I drove a base for years and still had fun with it so if it feels just the same, it's worth it for me to let it chill there rather than dishing more money to fab.

Someday I'll post pic's...whenever it starts to happen.
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Old 02-16-2012, 01:57 PM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

^^^


There's quite a few drivers out there that have successfully performed some of said upgrades to their type SH, run Greddy eManage and retained their ATTS functionality. It's not impossible by any means, so I don't know why TypeT is being so negative about it. The most fun thing about Preludes and Honda sports cars in general is the fact that it's so easy to make it your own. There's a solution for just about every problem out there, so don't get stuck thinking you can't do something.

Do a little more of your own searching though, don't just take the word of two hobos arguing about what to do to your car in this one thread. Go to Google and see for yourself (click 'Go to Google').
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Old 02-16-2012, 02:04 PM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

Oh you've had a base model before? That's awesome! So you may already know that there is a front suspension difference between the two. A friend of mine has an SH and she wanted it a bit lower. The problem we ran into looking for new suspension setups was that pretty much every manufacturer shared the same part number between Base and SH parts, even if they claimed a particular part was for the SH. We never really got past this issue or found a setup we trusted with her ATTS, but this was about 2 or 3 years ago so things may have changed.
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Old 02-16-2012, 03:50 PM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

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Originally Posted by DueceNikels55 View Post
Just wanted some advice on the suspension and see if I was asking the wrong question about power.
Well you got one option there too.
BC is not the cheapest but I guess their quality is better than some cheaper ones. Dont think that youll be needing much more upgrades there than just some nice coilover set.

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It's not impossible by any means, so I don't know why TypeT is being so negative about it.
because just bolting on things doesnt make your car any better. "tuning them in" will

like I already said, this person should contact Rosko. I believe he has SH and he has done some modding to H22's anyway much more than we

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
Oh you've had a base model before? That's awesome! So you may already know that there is a front suspension difference between the two. A friend of mine has an SH and she wanted it a bit lower. The problem we ran into looking for new suspension setups was that pretty much every manufacturer shared the same part number between Base and SH parts, even if they claimed a particular part was for the SH. We never really got past this issue or found a setup we trusted with her ATTS, but this was about 2 or 3 years ago so things may have changed.
you can put base coilovers to sh, its just that you cannot mix their shocks and springs together, but if you change them all together, no problem

Last edited by TypeT; 02-16-2012 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:04 PM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

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Originally Posted by DueceNikels55 View Post
Not trying to piss people off here, I get what you are saying TypeT, I wasn't really looking for a different answer. Just wanted some advice on the suspension and see if I was asking the wrong question about power.

I'll quit posting...but I think I'm just going to bite the bullet and do an internal upgrade for Turbo. I'm going to do more research about whether leaving my ATTS on will affect it tremendously or not. I really don't give a F if it slips or is just an open differential. I drove a base for years and still had fun with it so if it feels just the same, it's worth it for me to let it chill there rather than dishing more money to fab.

Someday I'll post pic's...whenever it starts to happen.
Don't stop posting. The questions you ask can help out others. What he was trying to say is that you are basically asking the same questions in all the threads you have started; Type S vs. more power. Good question, just unnecessary to start multiple threads on the same targeted topic.

My opinion...Even if you want to make more power, how are you going to utilize it? suspension! That is my plan, building the suspension first, that way you can plan and research the motor issues over a decent amount of time.

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^^^


There's quite a few drivers out there that have successfully performed some of said upgrades to their type SH, run Greddy eManage and retained their ATTS functionality. It's not impossible by any means, so I don't know why TypeT is being so negative about it. The most fun thing about Preludes and Honda sports cars in general is the fact that it's so easy to make it your own. There's a solution for just about every problem out there, so don't get stuck thinking you can't do something.
TypeT is like SHdriver, minus the plagarism. The best things you can do to your car, is what he does to his. He hasn't tried anything different, that is all he knows, so it must be the best.

and I agree with you, the Prelude is a fun sports car to drive and make your own. Without spending a crazy amount of money, you can't make it "fast". BUT it is quick and absolutely fun to drive on the twisties.
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:12 PM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

^ I just have said that dont think any serious mod-plans if you dont have way to tune your engine... its pretty pointless to slap on parts and hope the best. doesnt work like that
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:25 PM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

If I were doing an N/A DD build and wanted to keep ATTS, I'd do it like this:

11.5:1 CR Mahle Gold pistons/Eagle rod sets from eBay
Ported Euro R IM from Rosko
70mm Omni TB from THMotorsports
Keep the Type-S intake
ID725cc Injectors
255lph fuel pump
Switch to e-85
Vibrant H22 Header from Rosko
Full 3" exhaust
GReddy Emanage Ultimate

You could probably bump right up against that 250 HP mark and keep things relatively cheap. E85 is amazing if it's available in your area.

With that power, I'd go with Function and Form type 1s for coilovers, 17" wheels of your choice, and a mild drop.
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:26 PM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

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70mm Omni TB from THMotorsports

ID725cc Injectors
arent those kinda overkill?
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:33 PM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

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arent those kinda overkill?
That TB costs $20. Why not? And you need bigger injectors for e85, and I really like the Injector Dynamics, and that's the smallest they offer.
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:42 PM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

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That TB costs $20. Why not? And you need bigger injectors for e85, and I really like the Injector Dynamics, and that's the smallest they offer.
bigger is alright, but still over 700cc...sounds too much. Rosko sells 410cc Acura RDX's. many people use them. OEM honda product.

and I havent seen any proof yet that bigger TB gives you any gains. Bigger is not necessarily better with TB's
56mm is good for 210hp
62mm is good for 260hp
70mm is good for 330hp

70mm could just slow down air flow. I have 66mm here and I plan to change it in dyno to see is it too big and does it effect in any positive way...

Last edited by TypeT; 02-16-2012 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:48 PM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

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bigger is alright, but still over 700cc...sounds too much. Rosko have 410cc Acura RDX's. many people use them.

and I havent seen any proof yet that bigger TB gives you any gains.
56mm is good for 210hp
62mm is good for 260hp
70mm is good for 330hp

70mm could just slow down air flow. I have 66mm here and I plan to change it in dyno to see is it too big and does it effect any positive way
Up until the IM, you pretty much want the biggest, best flowing stuff you can get. It's everything inside the IM that's really going to effect airspeed. Omni's TBs have been highly reviewed and the 70mm actually tapers to 68mm on the IM side. It's 20 ****ing dollars. If he sees a loss, he can put the stock one back on and use the omni as an affordable paper weight.

I'd still rather have IDs.
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Old 02-16-2012, 05:12 PM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

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Up until the IM, you pretty much want the biggest, best flowing stuff you can get.
"If you've increased the size and flow potential by increasing the flow area with a larger TB, the air will be flowing slower. The secret is to choose a TB size that provides enough flow that supports the full peak HP potential, but not any larger so that it doesn't have the opportunity of reducing torque from idle-midrange."

http://www.automotiveforums.com/t977...nd_torque.html
theres some good discussion about this subject

so its not bigger = better, you have to get RIGHT sized one..what ever it is then

Last edited by TypeT; 02-16-2012 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 02-16-2012, 06:03 PM
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Re: Throw in your advice Please?

so type-s tb would be fine since its 62 mm?
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