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Old 05-13-2011, 07:00 PM
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Ground wires.

I was reading a DIY guide about ground wiring.
Is it worth doing? Will better connectivity to the battery help with response, or would it be a waste of time? I'd like to do it just so it looks nice, and it'll replace the nasty old ground wires.
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Old 05-13-2011, 07:25 PM
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Re: Ground wires.

Help with response? No not really. All ground wires that send any response time sensitive signals are grounded through the ecu, such as sensors. Replacing your batteries ground wire would be helpful though, it tends to rot, as a 4 inch section of it is bare.

If it's for aesthetic reasons, then do whatever floats your boat man.
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Old 05-13-2011, 07:38 PM
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Re: Ground wires.

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Originally Posted by havikprelude View Post
Help with response? No not really. All ground wires that send any response time sensitive signals are grounded through the ecu, such as sensors. Replacing your batteries ground wire would be helpful though, it tends to rot, as a 4 inch section of it is bare.

If it's for aesthetic reasons, then do whatever floats your boat man.
Well in that case, I'll probably replace just the batterie's ground wire and get new clamps.
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Old 05-13-2011, 08:19 PM
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Re: Ground wires.

what thread did you read?

Was it "The Big Three?"
And your answer ism Yes, it DOES help. Two of the three parts of it are ground fixes that reduce the impedance between your battery, chassis, and engine. And since power actually flows from negative to positive..I would say this is a substantial improvement to electrical stability and overall use/ability to use this energy in your vehicle.
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Old 05-13-2011, 09:40 PM
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Re: Ground wires.

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Originally Posted by LilMsPrelude View Post
what thread did you read?

Was it "The Big Three?"
And your answer ism Yes, it DOES help. Two of the three parts of it are ground fixes that reduce the impedance between your battery, chassis, and engine. And since power actually flows from negative to positive..I would say this is a substantial improvement to electrical stability and overall use/ability to use this energy in your vehicle.
Although reducing electrical resistance in non-electronic circuits really won't help any kind of vehicle "response." Then again, it would help to know what exact kind of "response" we're talking about here.


And electricity only flows from negative to positive according to the electron theory. The conventional theory of electricity states the opposite, and no one has yet proved which one is true. Not that it really matters when dealing with electrical circuits in a practical sense anyway.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:06 PM
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Re: Ground wires.

response in electrical flow since that is what we are talking about here. If your Battery can get power to the starter with less resistance than that is going to allow your starter to work more efficiently. Can you deny this?

What about having a 1000W amp in the trunk being fed off a 4awg positive wire for a run of 20 feet. What is the resulting failure. - It's Heat caused by resistance.

As for electrical theory... it is a theory because it is still an unpredictable force. Mankind only thinks they know how to control it. I believe we have only scratched the surface of its real power. Look where we have come in, say, 50 years. There is More to discover.
Let me give you an example of positive and negative electron flow that most gear heads understand. When you are powder coating a metal surface; one first grounds the article to be "painted" and then you shoot positively charged paint ions at it which attach to the metal.

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Application of the powder is accomplished by electrostatically charging the powder as it is sprayed onto the part. This takes place as the powder flows through the spray gun, which contains an electrode that accomplishes the task. This gives each particle of the powder a charge and results in an electrostatic attraction to the part, which is grounded or discharged for this process. The result is a uniform coating of dry powder clinging to the part.

edit: even with my long drawn out diatribe about something I know little about---- we MUST admit that in order for electricity to flow there must be a circuit... positive to negative, negative to positive... right? Our 12 Volt Negative grounded cars use the Chassis of the vehicle for all major ground points right? So, the importance of providing adequate ground is a Necessity. Increasing the wire size reduces resistance which makes for an easier path to ground. Can we agree on this?
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Old 05-14-2011, 02:00 AM
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Re: Ground wires.



This man agrees with me. Your argument is invalid.
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Old 05-14-2011, 08:29 AM
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Re: Ground wires.

Replaced battery ground, gained 50bhp.
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Old 05-14-2011, 03:42 PM
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Re: Ground wires.

agree with havoc on theory vs perception. negative electrons only want to do one thing, get to the positive. if you look at an atom, the positive and neatral parts do not move. they are what form the substance whether it be copper or bananas. electrons are free to move about but depending on how strongly they are attached to their own atom they move easier or harder. in the case of copper they move easily between atoms. the short, power flows from neg to pos. perception is though, positive is the power side, negative is the ground. theres a reason the negative is the ground. it has the whole vehicle to draw electrons from. so even while we all think of the positive as the power source its actually the opposite. having said all that, electricity doesnt care which way its going as lilms said. when it encounters resistance it gets bunged up and instead of carrying on as electricity, it changes form and turns into heat. so now only some of it actually gets through. the end result is, when all you need is raw power, such as a starter, the quality of the cables only matters in the case of supply. if your starter ground is frayed, your starter will struggle. in the case of a ecu, many of the calculations it makes are based on the quality of the voltage getting to it. so a frayed wire that would normally carry 5 volts will only carry 4.9 volts now. this is a huge deal when it comes to sensors and overall performance. so, go ahead and replace that cable. it wont hurt anything and as mentioned, they tend to fail down near the tranny. a little long winded but pretty explanatory. hope it helps
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Old 05-14-2011, 04:48 PM
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Re: Ground wires.

^^

As far as sensors go, there's a reason that the signal voltage is usually 5 volts even though the charging voltage is usually around 14 volts, with system volts about 12.6.

So the battery can fail, the alternator can fail, and the car will shut off...all without affecting sensor operation. Grounding doesn't affect engine performance unless it's bad enough to cause a malfunction or failure. As far as "increases response time" goes, idk what the hell that means in terms of this conversation. And the arguments about the starter are moot because they're not even part of the topic of discussion.


And if you really want, why not just check total ground resistance of the car, see if it's in spec, and that will tell you whether or not you gotta worry about it? It only takes one DMM, one simple test, and about 2 minutes of your time.
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Old 05-14-2011, 08:21 PM
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Re: Ground wires.

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Originally Posted by havikprelude View Post
^^

As far as sensors go, there's a reason that the signal voltage is usually 5 volts even though the charging voltage is usually around 14 volts, with system volts about 12.6.

So the battery can fail, the alternator can fail, and the car will shut off...all without affecting sensor operation. Grounding doesn't affect engine performance unless it's bad enough to cause a malfunction or failure. As far as "increases response time" goes, idk what the hell that means in terms of this conversation. And the arguments about the starter are moot because they're not even part of the topic of discussion.


And if you really want, why not just check total ground resistance of the car, see if it's in spec, and that will tell you whether or not you gotta worry about it? It only takes one DMM, one simple test, and about 2 minutes of your time.
Yay, common sense versus pseudo-science. Rep well earned.
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Old 05-14-2011, 11:04 PM
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Re: Ground wires.

I never stated engine performance would or would not be affected by ground. I DID say the free flow of electrons is important. Ya'all are coming up with nonsense that i NEVER stated. Take some time to read. People run giant power wires then use inadequate, half the wire size, grounds. Real genius way to create a bottleneck--electrically speaking.

Electricity wants to neutralize itself, period. Study lightning. Study powder coating. Take a state mandated electrical licensing test; then come back and "argue" electrical theory.
And to the person that negative repped me for trying to help the op understand electrical basics...., really? What is your basis?
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Old 05-15-2011, 08:20 AM
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Re: Ground wires.

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Originally Posted by LilMsPrelude View Post
I never stated engine performance would or would not be affected by ground.
Well he is asking about electrical grounds as it relates to "response time." I assumed he meant response time as it concerns engine performance (sensor response, throttle response, etc.) which will not be improved or degraded by the conditions of your grounds unless the resistance is out of spec or there is a short or open on the low side of the circuit. Personally I think this whole topic is just about pointless, unless of course something is malfunctioning or inoperative.

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Take some time to read.
Reading is for chumps lol.

Quote:
then come back and "argue" electrical theory.
I'm not arguing electrical theory. I stated that there are two theories where direction of electron flow is concerned, and neither matters when it comes to practical application of automotive circuits specifically in the areas of diagnosis and repair.

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And to the person that negative repped me for trying to help the op understand electrical basics...., really? What is your basis?
That was pretty unnecessary, while I may not agree with what lilmsprelude said as it concerns the practical application of the topic at hand, it doesn't mean she's wrong. I respect her opinion in matters of electrical/electronic circuits above all others on this forum.



Keeping the OP's topic within perspective, he asked if redoing all his grounds would help improve "response." I don't think that this question can be answered until we know what he means by "response." All my advice has been hinging on the assumption that he means response as it pertains to engine performance, and my assumption may very well be wrong.
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Old 05-15-2011, 08:52 AM
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Re: Ground wires.

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And to the person that negative repped me for trying to help the op understand electrical basics...., really? What is your basis?
wasnt me.
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Old 05-15-2011, 09:12 AM
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Re: Ground wires.

i know who did it and i will deal with it accordingly.

we're not really going anywhere with this thread. what ever he meant by response right now doesn't really matter anymore. it looks like he's already made his decision. so that being said. grounds have a direct effect on the efficiency of your electrical system. your whole car operates on electrical principals. so to say it DOESN'T respond better is to say your engine wouldn't operate better in a cold or even an oxygen rich environment... now will YOU notice the responses? probably not. unless you really had a serious ground problem. but a volt (multi) meter will be able to measure the differences between a ground about to fail and a good ground where as you might not notice a difference.
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