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A/C equals rough idle.

 
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:31 AM
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A/C equals rough idle.

Alright so I think I have my problem narrowed down, and just want someone with more knowledge than me to confirm this.

When I bought my prelude, it had no motor, we put in h22a blah blah blah.


There are two fans on the radiator, one is for cooling, one is for the a/c, correct?

The mounts on my radiator where the a/c fan would go are jacked up and we never put that fan on, the motor doesnt ever run hot which is why I am assuming the second fan is for a/c.

Now, when it is, lets say above 75 degrees or so, when I run the a/c, not even at full blast, the car idles like ****.

It will jump up and down between 2k and about 100 rpms. If it is cooler outside, it will work fine.

Would the lack of that fan be my problem? We have recharged the a/c and I know it works, the compressor never squeaks or does anything crazy...
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:48 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

Hmm. My car vibrates at idle, and worse with the a/c on, but i never had a problem with the rpm gauge jumping around.
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Old 06-16-2010, 01:13 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

I can't answer this for sure, but it sounds possible. The compressor compresses the gas and runs it into the condensor. Here the freon has a chance to give off heat generated when it was compressed and allows the freon to become a liquid. From there the liquid is slowly released into a low pressure through the metering device. As it evaporates in the low pressure environemnt (30 psi) it takes on heat from the cabin air since it's temp is about 30 degrees. Normally, I would have just thought it wouldn't cool, but if there is a some way the compressor is get a liquid at the inlet it could make the idle rough and probably cause damage to the compressor, but this is just a threory. I would say throw a fan on it and see. If you don't have a factory fan, I'm sure you could test with a cheaper aftermarket and then if you live somewhere that gets to hot for that fan you may have to get another factory one for the real heat or you may be able to just use that one and be good.

Most likely you will only know if you try. I wouldn't think a lot of people would have seen this issue first hand.
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Old 06-16-2010, 01:55 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

Alright, as much as I hate to do this, it's been bugging me and I gotta say something. So don't think I'm just picking on you, alot of people have been doing this.

It is NOT freon in an automotive a/c system, and there never has been. It's called REFRIGERANT, either R-12 (older) or R-134a (newer) or there is even mixes of refrigerants. But it is not freon.

And if your R/D (receiver/dryer) has too much moisture in it, then it will cause moisture to enter the compressor, which is only designed to run gas, not liquids. Or if your evaporator is not working properly. Chances are any kind of engine issues you are experiencing are caused by the compressor, the only moving part in the a/c system and the only one connected to the engine via the belts. Check the sight glass on your R/D (black canister with a/c lines running into it in the front of the car, right next to the condensor (radiator looking thing thats in front of your actual radiator)). If there are bubbles in it, that means air. Not good. To be honest I forget if there is an easy way to see if there is moisture in the system.
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:13 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

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Originally Posted by havikprelude View Post
Alright, as much as I hate to do this, it's been bugging me and I gotta say something. So don't think I'm just picking on you, alot of people have been doing this.

It is NOT freon in an automotive a/c system, and there never has been. It's called REFRIGERANT, either R-12 (older) or R-134a (newer) or there is even mixes of refrigerants. But it is not freon.

And if your R/D (receiver/dryer) has too much moisture in it, then it will cause moisture to enter the compressor, which is only designed to run gas, not liquids. Or if your evaporator is not working properly. Chances are any kind of engine issues you are experiencing are caused by the compressor, the only moving part in the a/c system and the only one connected to the engine via the belts. Check the sight glass on your R/D (black canister with a/c lines running into it in the front of the car, right next to the condensor (radiator looking thing thats in front of your actual radiator)). If there are bubbles in it, that means air. Not good. To be honest I forget if there is an easy way to see if there is moisture in the system.
You sure are wealth of useless knowledge or is it unused knowledge? You see how your post was no help to thread owner or anyone that may read it?

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Old 06-16-2010, 02:19 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

I don't really know why you have beef with me, but it's getting annoying.

1. It's not called freon, a/c refrigerants are called refrigerants. Freon is not used in automotive applications, only a/c systems in larger transportation usages, like tractor trailer HVAC, until it was replaced by R-22 and then by something else, like R-126 or something. This was done because freon is dangerous and such. Saying freon is a slang term, basically.

2. I left a very helpful nugget at the bottom of my post. Compressors only run gas, and are not designed for liquids. It will damage the compressor, and the best way for moisture to enter the compressor is by a oversaturated R/D. Because water will not evaporate or condense at the same temperatures the refrigerant does. So it will go through the evaporator, come out still a liquid, and get sucked into the compressor and fuk **** up.

3. Wikipedia is not a citable source, nor is any other unbound encyclopedia. So no, I didn't click the link.
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:24 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

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Originally Posted by havikprelude View Post
Alright, as much as I hate to do this, it's been bugging me and I gotta say something. So don't think I'm just picking on you, alot of people have been doing this.

It is NOT freon in an automotive a/c system, and there never has been. It's called REFRIGERANT, either R-12 (older) or R-134a (newer) or there is even mixes of refrigerants. But it is not freon.

And if your R/D (receiver/dryer) has too much moisture in it, then it will cause moisture to enter the compressor, which is only designed to run gas, not liquids. Or if your evaporator is not working properly. Chances are any kind of engine issues you are experiencing are caused by the compressor, the only moving part in the a/c system and the only one connected to the engine via the belts. Check the sight glass on your R/D (black canister with a/c lines running into it in the front of the car, right next to the condensor (radiator looking thing thats in front of your actual radiator)). If there are bubbles in it, that means air. Not good. To be honest I forget if there is an easy way to see if there is moisture in the system.
Yea Freon is just the brand name of the refrigerant lol. My A/C was just redone with brand new refrigerant and it feels like it is literally shooting out ice lol.
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:30 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

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Originally Posted by havikprelude View Post
I don't really know why you have beef with me, but it's getting annoying.

1. It's not called freon, a/c refrigerants are called refrigerants. Freon is not used in automotive applications, only a/c systems in larger transportation usages, like tractor trailer HVAC, until it was replaced by R-22 and then by something else, like R-126 or something. This was done because freon is dangerous and such. Saying freon is a slang term, basically.

2. I left a very helpful nugget at the bottom of my post. Compressors only run gas, and are not designed for liquids. It will damage the compressor, and the best way for moisture to enter the compressor is by a oversaturated R/D. Because water will not evaporate or condense at the same temperatures the refrigerant does. So it will go through the evaporator, come out still a liquid, and get sucked into the compressor and fuk **** up.

3. Wikipedia is not a citable source, nor is any other unbound encyclopedia. So no, I didn't click the link.
I'm just trying to help the thread owner. You are doing???

Note, he would find that his A/C wouldn't cool very well at any time if it had water in the system to the point that the decadent couldn't absorb it. Remember his problem is only when ambient temps are about 75 and he has no fan for the system.
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:59 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

What do you mean you're trying to help? Your first post did not include any relevant information, you basically just described how an a/c system works, then mused out some theory. You basically even said this isn't helping in any way, its just some theory pulled out of my ass.

You gave him something to think about, I gave him something to do, so he can start to rule out stuff and get on with his diagnoses.


If you're gonna get all pissy because I corrected you on your usage of terms, then you're gonna spend a lot of time pissed off. How would you even go through lie like that? Chill out. You wouldn't have said a thing if I hadn't been having a relevant discussion in your thread with dbd, or if I hadn't corrected you on your improper usage of the word freon. Stop being a baby and getting up in my shiz, it's really not helping anything, and it'll only lead to the thread getting closed, which definitely won't help the OP.


Now I'm done arguing with you, on this or any other thread.

/resume topic
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Old 06-16-2010, 03:13 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

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Originally Posted by havikprelude View Post
What do you mean you're trying to help? Your first post did not include any relevant information, you basically just described how an a/c system works, then mused out some theory. You basically even said this isn't helping in any way, its just some theory pulled out of my ass.

You gave him something to think about, I gave him something to do, so he can start to rule out stuff and get on with his diagnoses.


If you're gonna get all pissy because I corrected you on your usage of terms, then you're gonna spend a lot of time pissed off. How would you even go through lie like that? Chill out. You wouldn't have said a thing if I hadn't been having a relevant discussion in your thread with dbd, or if I hadn't corrected you on your improper usage of the word freon. Stop being a baby and getting up in my shiz, it's really not helping anything, and it'll only lead to the thread getting closed, which definitely won't help the OP.


Now I'm done arguing with you, on this or any other thread.

/resume topic
I told him to install a fan as this would be a likely cause of the issue.

Corrected me? You said the the Dupont brand name for refriedgerent isn't valid to use in place of refridgerent. So, where is the correction?

You instructed the guy to look at something that would affect the system all of the time, not just when the ambient temp is high. How is that help.

Your post on my thread is in no way relevant to my isssue. You only made me check the thread several times to find no info that help me out. Thankfully there are other people on this site that were very helpful on my thread.

As for you pissing me off, don't flatter yourself. You were and still are of no importance to my life.
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Old 06-16-2010, 03:21 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

And yes, you really should install an a/c fan. When the a/c is running it puts hot air in front of the radiator, and decreases it's ability to transfer heat out of your cooling system. The a/c fan is there to provide extra air flow to improve this.

The only other thing I can think of at the moment would possibly be a defect in your compressor, such as an imbalance.

When I feel like not being lazy I'll pull out my hvac books and see if I can find anything for you.
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Old 06-16-2010, 11:27 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

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Originally Posted by havikprelude View Post
2. I left a very helpful nugget at the bottom of my post. Compressors only run gas, and are not designed for liquids. It will damage the compressor, and the best way for moisture to enter the compressor is by a oversaturated R/D. Because water will not evaporate or condense at the same temperatures the refrigerant does.
I just want to take a moment here to interject that saying that compressors only run gas isn't 100% true. While the inlet of the compressor is going to see only gas 99% of the time (unless there's moisture or too much refrigerant), the whole point of the compressor is to take the low pressure gas and compress it to the point where it becomes a high pressure liquid.

Not to be a smartass or anything, I just wanted to clarify that bit of info lol.
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Old 06-16-2010, 01:58 PM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

lol @ wikipedia.
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:49 PM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

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I just want to take a moment here to interject that saying that compressors only run gas isn't 100% true. While the inlet of the compressor is going to see only gas 99% of the time (unless there's moisture or too much refrigerant), the whole point of the compressor is to take the low pressure gas and compress it to the point where it becomes a high pressure liquid.

Not to be a smartass or anything, I just wanted to clarify that bit of info lol.
Actually the compressor takes low pressure gas and turns it into high pressure gas. The condensor turns that high pressure gas into a liquid. That's why nothing (except a muffler) can go between the compressor and condensor, otherwise the high pressure gas pulses generated by it will destroy stuff.
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Old 06-16-2010, 03:05 PM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

I find it hilarious how much info one can absorb from reading an agrument.

Touchè, gentlemen.
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Old 06-16-2010, 04:11 PM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

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I find it hilarious how much info one can absorb from reading an agrument.

Touchè, gentlemen.
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Actually the compressor takes low pressure gas and turns it into high pressure gas. The condensor turns that high pressure gas into a liquid. That's why nothing (except a muffler) can go between the compressor and condensor, otherwise the high pressure gas pulses generated by it will destroy stuff.
You've got a point there.

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Old 06-17-2010, 12:15 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

Well as much as I hate to bring it up, I took a 6 week Auto HVAC course, got my MACS certification, and I'm not too terribly bad at a/c either. I admit I'm out of practice and the info isn't fresh, but I have some idea of what I'm talking about lol.

But whether or not people want to listen to me is all up to them. I'm not giving help or info to anyone who doesn't want it, and as I always say, if I'm ever wrong and you can prove it, correct me. I don't want to go around peddling false info.



Anywhosimawhatsits.....I know that when you disconnect the fan on a car that it will basically cause the a/c system to overheat, which will cause the system to bounce of the high pressure cutoff switch, essentially turning off/on/off/on. However I've never seen a missing fan cause a lot of vibration or rpm variation. To the op: How's your drive belt tightness?
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Old 06-17-2010, 01:03 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

Also, what about worn motor mounts?
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Old 06-17-2010, 01:45 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

Ehh...I think that would just cause vibration all the time. My friend had a broken motor mount, it vibrated nasty all the time.
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Old 06-17-2010, 02:08 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

Holy balls batman!
Epic post war, hell I was gonna be happy if I had 1 reply.

Anywho, I am exhausted, and didnt want to read the wall of war.

So I have compiled cliff notes:

Check the R/D thing to see if air bubbles.
Try to put fan on and test it.

If there are air bubbles, what do I do?
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Old 06-17-2010, 03:00 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by My97Prelude View Post
Holy balls batman!
Epic post war, hell I was gonna be happy if I had 1 reply.

Anywho, I am exhausted, and didnt want to read the wall of war.

So I have compiled cliff notes:

Check the R/D thing to see if air bubbles.
Try to put fan on and test it.

If there are air bubbles, what do I do?
Well your R/D (reciever/dryer) has a dessicant bag inside of it. This is to soak up moisture in the system. The R/D usually has a sight glass on top of it. Now if you've seen me talk about sight glasses before, then you'd know I'm not a fan of them. However, without a set of manifold gauges it's the best you can do. I think manifold gauges sell for 50-100 dollars, they are for reading the pressures in the system which will help you diagnose it, as well as emptying and refilling the system. Known as Recovery/Evacuation/Charging.

If you do see bubbles in the sight glass, it means air got in there. Which usually indicates a leak. Then you would have to Recover (pull out) all the refrigerant in the system and put it into an approved tank, then evacuate it (put system into a vacuum to boil and remove leftover refrigerant, moisture and air.) If during evacuation you cannot put the system into -30psi of vacuum then you have a leak. And it needs to be fixed.

Now this is not easy to do my yourself, and without the proper tools it can be illegal. You are not allowed to vent refrigerant into the air, and if caught doing it you could face a hefty fine. So for any a/c work, I recommend taking it to a reputable shop that services a/c systems.

I also suggest you put a fan on the thing, if nothing else than to keep your car from overheating, and it will help keep the a/c system working properly.

Also, I suggest you check your belt tightness. Easy way to do it would be to take your belt (drive belt, the ones you can see, should be two) on a spot that has a decent run length of free span and try to twist it. A serpentine belt should roughly be able to twist about a quarter of a turn. So you should be able to turn it sideways without too much trouble. Another easy way is to run the car for a while (take it for a quick spin or something) and feel the belts right after you shut the car off. If one or both belts is excessivly hot, it means its developing too much friction, and is too tight.

The proper way is to check belt deflection, by using a ruler or tape measure. A serpentine belt should have 1/2 inch deflection per one foot of distance. So pick a spot on your belt that has the longest free span between pulleys, put the ruler up against it and push down. It should only move a half inch on the ruler if the length of belt you chose to measure is one foot long between pulleys. If its two feet, then it should move about an inch in total.


So in summary, check your sight glass, then check your belt tension and get back to us.
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You're such a whiny little douche sometimes, but posts like these make me love you.

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Old 06-17-2010, 08:36 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

One thing I wondered is how you get all the damn oil from the system when you evacuate it lol. I guess that's what you flush it for?
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:02 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

Oil comes out when you recover it, some when you evacuate. No point to flushing a system. Of course you won't get all of it, but its close enough.
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You're such a whiny little douche sometimes, but posts like these make me love you.
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Old 06-17-2010, 11:42 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

I'm guessing most people can't just pull that out of their tool box. I wonder what I could sell it for. LOL

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Old 06-17-2010, 11:47 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

If its R-12, a decent amount would be worth some money soon. They will be phasing out R-134a in the next couple years, and the holdouts who don't want to convert will still pay a decent amount for it. But a small can like that, not much.

Speaking of those small cans, they are called hand grenades for a reason. They are technically illegal, because they do not have a safety blowoff valve, or some shiz like that. I am also prohibited by law from handling them. Not to mention if you try and charge the system with them on the high side, you could have problems, especially if you accidentally or otherwise turn the a/c on, as the high side pressure of the system will push refrigerant into the can and cause it to explode.

Also I didn't say anything to what you are referring, I assume you meant the part where I said you need an approved container to recover. Well those small pound cans are not approved containers, and you cannot recover refrigerant into them. Not physically or legally.



And whats the deal with the wing on your car? Looks like a spaceship lol.
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You're such a whiny little douche sometimes, but posts like these make me love you.

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Old 06-18-2010, 12:55 PM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

That is how people use to buy their Freon. It came in those cans. That is an original full can of R-12 freon. Of course that is not a recovery container, it's a purchased full can.

As for trying to rag on my car. LOL
I built my entire car myself, except for the paint job and have won a few big trophies at car shows. Like my first place at NOPI in 2000 and first place at a NIRA show in Moroso. I've also won a few SCCA solo II trophies with it. What have you done with your car besides try to fix the damage done to it by the previous owner?
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Old 06-18-2010, 01:23 PM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

You're still trying to argue aren't you?

Ya, I'm just an insignificant peon who doesn't piss you off, and have absolutely no significance to your life. Yet you're still trying to argue with me about the name on a can of R-12.

And no, I really wasn't trying to make fun of your car, I don't think it looks bad, just unusual. Nor do I care what trophies you have or haven't won.


I care about helping this guy get his problems fixed, and which you claimed to want to do, although only two of all your posts in this thread have had anything to do with trying to help this guy. The rest have been arguing with me about a goddamn can of refrigerant.

Get. A. Life.



Now in an attempt to dissuade you from being a jackass further, I'm going to post some of your likely comebacks.

"You started it!"
Yes, but I also said this isn't directed at you in particular, and refrigerant isn't called freon. Unless you're using a particular brand of R-12, which if you have a car built after 1990, why the hell are you using it? (oh yeah, and I don't care when the R-12 to R-134a switch was made, so don't tell me). Also, freon is a brand name, not the name of the substance. All adhesive bandages aren't band-aids, and all sheetrock isn't really sheetrock. Because sheetrock is a brand name. That's like talking about someone's motor oil and saying, "yeah you're mobil 1 is dirty, which means the mobil 1 in your car needs to be changed." It just confuses people. That was the point I was trying to make.

"I didn't only make two helpful posts, I made three!"
Do. Not. Care. The fact of the matter is the majority of your posts have been arguing with me, or bashing me, either blatantly or subtley. And since you have only approx. 20 posts, thats probably the majority of them. And you may also say that I'm more guilty of it, and may even point out that that is the whole point of this post. Well duh, that is the point of this post. Because you just could not let it go, and I'm trying to make it clear to you that 1. I don't want to argue with you anymore and 2. if this thread gets shut down because of this argument, myself, and more so the OP, are going to be rather pissed. Also I would like to point out that other than one or two other posts, most being in the off topic section, I really have not had an argument with anyone, at least not one this asinine or this long.

"I do have a life and my car is more badass then yours"
Once again, the whole, I don't really give a damn thing, comes into play. Because I don't, really. If I did there wouldn't be that little orange writing in my sig, which basically tells the whole forum my car is a piece. Whoop-dee-doo. I still love my car.
Then you might say that I (havik) have no life but you (chfurie474364) do because of a better looking girlfriend, better car, better job, more money, better looking hookers, smaller post count, whatever asinine reason you can find. Don't give a crap. I've been in more internet arguments than I care to admit. On forums, games, you name it. I know all the debate points you could come up with, and I simply don't care. Because once your argument has lost its potency, and you lose the battle on what you were arguing about in the first place, you degrade to calling me a poopyhead and saying you're better than me because of "X" reason. You might be better than me. Might be better looking, have more money, have a hotter girlfriend, a better car, whatever. That's life. And people that live in the real world get used to it fairly quick, or you just spend your entire life being pissed at other people because they got dealt a better hand. It's called getting over it and growing up.


Now, since you prolly don't have any useful comebacks, you'll either dig through my posts and go over spelling errors, discrepancies, or pull something from one of my other posts or just straight out of your ass. And once that's all used up, you'll be left with calling me a poopyhead.

Let's just cut to the chase, assume you have better **** to do, and just stfu.






To the OP: Sorry about the argument in your thread, I will refrain from posting any other non-relevant information henceforth. Once you check that stuff out and get back to us, we'll continue with trying to narrow down your problem.
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Last edited by havikprelude; 06-18-2010 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 06-19-2010, 01:29 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

You know this is why I haven't been on any forums lately. I came here after seaching since last time I was on hondaprelude.com was online. I was looking for info to help with a new work around for the second O2 sensor, since the only one I knew about wouldn't work on my car. Since I was now a member and asking for help, it would only be fair to help a few people on here. Now after having my thread jacked by an upstanding member of this site, who at first looked to my like he was franticly searching for a new reason why his car isn't running right.

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I'll thread jack this shiz....

I was going to do the o2 spacer mod because I'm about to throw a test pipe on my car, problem is, it's supposed to make the car run leaner and my car (I'm pretty sure) already runs too lean. Sooooo would doing this be a bad idea?


I find my self definding my help and facts with even photographic evidence and it's not enough. I think I've figured it out now and I'll just say an older mechanic would call it freon since that what it was when they learned it. But anyways...

I would certainly start with the fan since it is a vital part of the system and you will need to work in any warm weather. I'm not sure it is causing your current issue, but it's a possible cause. What might be happening is the system is not cooling and condensing like it should, causing it to run like an over filled system. Which would mean the compressor is pulling in denser gas making harder to compress. This takes more power and would put more strain on the motor than normal.

Last edited by Crf450r420; 06-19-2010 at 01:44 AM.
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Old 06-19-2010, 01:35 AM
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Re: A/C equals rough idle.

The fan definitely should have something to do with it, being that in a nutshell, the lack of removing heat from the A/C system is going to cause higher head pressures and therefore more strain on the motor/compressor.
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