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took my motor apart and.....

 
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Old 12-16-2009, 02:21 PM
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took my motor apart and.....

ok so i took the head off my motor today and was very disappointed. the original owner told me the motor had forged internals and darton sleeves. he wasn't lying about the forged internals, but it turns out the motor was never sleeved. he put JE pistons in the stock sleeves, and now #2 cylinder wall is extremely scored on one side (motor had a lot of blowby when i bought it, figured the rings were shot)

so now what are my options???

also, will a 1992-1995 JDM h22a swap into my car if my motor isn't worth fixing? i have a base model.

thanks,
alex
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Old 12-16-2009, 02:26 PM
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Re: took my motor apart and.....

lmfao wow. that's a fuking epic fail for him! i'm surprised it's only #2 and not all of them.

yes, a JDM H22a will drop right in. you'd hafta convert to OBD1 tho.
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:43 PM
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Re: took my motor apart and.....

i notice that there are tiny breaks between the sleeves in the aluminum. is this normal or does anyone have any idea what causes this?
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:57 PM
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Re: took my motor apart and.....

H22 sleeves are FRM thats why your block is so epicly f*cked right now. you NEVER and i mean NEVER use forged pistons in FRM sleeved blocks. one of your options is to take the block and get it sleeved with some Darton dry sleeves. they usually run around $400 plus install. then either re use the pistons that are in there, if possible, or buy new forged pistons and re assemble.
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Old 12-16-2009, 05:20 PM
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Re: took my motor apart and.....

is a bare block from 92-95 the same as one from 97+? i am asking because i think i found a block but im not sure what gen it is. if its the same i will transfer everything onto the new block and just run a stock motor, as long as i can run obd2. will my head fit on a pre 97 block? i have no money to get this thing built and i literally just need to get it to run right now. was seriously considering selling everything to avoid headaches altogether but no one is going to buy it.
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Old 12-16-2009, 05:24 PM
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Re: took my motor apart and.....

you cannot put those forged pistons into a stock block, you will have to buy stock pistons or you can try Mahle pistons. and im pretty sure the main journals for the crank are different sizes too. your head will fit an OBD1 block. how much money do you have to spend?
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Old 12-16-2009, 05:26 PM
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Re: took my motor apart and.....

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Originally Posted by aalvarez3 View Post
is a bare block from 92-95 the same as one from 97+? i am asking because i think i found a block but im not sure what gen it is. if its the same i will transfer everything onto the new block and just run a stock motor, as long as i can run obd2. will my head fit on a pre 97 block? i have no money to get this thing built and i literally just need to get it to run right now. was seriously considering selling everything to avoid headaches altogether but no one is going to buy it.
you can do literally what i just did... i ordered a jdm h22a and im gonna drop it in monday problem solved then im going to tear all the old sht apart and if my engine block is not F*kd from blowing a rod then im going to completley overhaul turbo ready it and just run the stocker untill i have everything rebuilt
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Old 12-16-2009, 05:32 PM
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well i was going to get stock pistons to put in the new block. i believe the block i found is complete but it spun a bearing or something. would i be able to use it with obd2. i cannot spend more than like 600 bucks on this car

also, i want to find a direct swap so i don't over-complicate my life. i'm seriously ready to give up on it. i bought it thinking it was going to be a quick fix and now ive got the whole car apart :/ mind you it's my daily driver and to top it all off, i got laid off a week ago. talk about a kick in the balls....

Last edited by hotrod; 12-20-2009 at 10:08 PM. Reason: merging back to back posts.
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Old 12-16-2009, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aalvarez3 View Post
i notice that there are tiny breaks between the sleeves in the aluminum. is this normal or does anyone have any idea what causes this?

Pics please... Sounds like iron sleeves to me from description...

Sleeves arent necessarily thick pieces at all and can be as thin as a credit card.

Let us see what your talking about so we can understand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aalvarez3 View Post
is a bare block from 92-95 the same as one from 97+? i am asking because i think i found a block but im not sure what gen it is. if its the same i will transfer everything onto the new block and just run a stock motor, as long as i can run obd2. will my head fit on a pre 97 block? i have no money to get this thing built and i literally just need to get it to run right now. was seriously considering selling everything to avoid headaches altogether but no one is going to buy it.
Blocks.. NO, they are not the same.

Basic information:

92-96 block - closed deck
97-01+ block - open deck

92-97: 50mm main bearings -50mm crank obviously crank has to match
98-01: 55mm main bearings- 55mm crank

*yes, note 97 is included in the 50mm category...


Heads.. Yes, they will interchange without any issues...

*Use Headgasket that matches the block!




Pics before you call this dead...

Quote:
Originally Posted by aalvarez3 View Post
well i was going to get stock pistons to put in the new block. i believe the block i found is complete but it spun a bearing or something. would i be able to use it with obd2. i cannot spend more than like 600 bucks on this car
Quote:
Originally Posted by aalvarez3 View Post
also, i want to find a direct swap so i don't over-complicate my life. i'm seriously ready to give up on it. i bought it thinking it was going to be a quick fix and now ive got the whole car apart :/ mind you it's my daily driver and to top it all off, i got laid off a week ago. talk about a kick in the balls....
Not to be a dick here... But, you may wanna spend the $600 on a daily driver and use the prelude as a project car... I wouldnt ever heavily modify (ie turbo) any vehicle I expected to use as a daily driver without a backup plan.


Also, best bet here is to buy a block off someone who bent valves from an auto tensioner failure... Other than that, I dont see how you could do it for that kind of cash. Spun bearings usually equal machine work along with lots of unplanned for problems.. IMO, it would be a waste to buy a spun bearing block for a quick fix. At minimum, your going to have to have the crank polished, block checked (probably line bored), all new bearings (plastigauged to specs), new oil pump, new seals(front, rear, oil pump, oil pan, headgasket, etc), etc...
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Old 12-16-2009, 06:00 PM
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http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/1259/dsc00354f.jpg



there are the pictures of what im talking about. i am looking into these darton dry sleeves, my machine shop will do them for 70 each as long as they are dry sleeves and not wet(they dont do those for some reason)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Darto...#ht_2962wt_954

what bothers me is those little cracks between the sleeves. i can't tell if the sleeves in there now ARE darton sleeves, and if they were, idk why that #2 sleeve would get so f'd up. what do you guys think?

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Old 12-16-2009, 10:16 PM
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Re: took my motor apart and.....

those are not stock... I can certainly say this block has been sleeved. Good news is its sleeved and you were wrong about that.

Bad news is it looks like they did a poor job of it and the holes are out of round. Those 'gaps' seem excessive in the picture. The problem is not every joe schmo can put sleeves in a honda block. The tolerances are so tight it takes some skill to do things right, which costs more $$.

Is it possible to use those sleeves without any repurcussions? Im not sure. I would take it to your machine shop and see what they think of it. They may be fine. Pictures only tell a small amount of the story.

The machine shop wont be able to put new sleeves in as the ones you have pictured. Those are the same size and type as you have in there now... There is not point in replacing them. If they are the problem, your going to need bigger sleeves. If they are fine, your just going to need oversized pistons and to bore out your sleeves if they are that badly damaged. Take it to your machine shop as is and see what they say.

Im not sure why your cylinder #2 has scratched. If its the one pictured, Im not sure its bad enough to cause issues even. Does it catch with your fingernail? Possible reasons for scarring though. It could be because of incorrect size boring, hole out of round, piston rings (size or type), even rod end issues, or bearing going out. I listed them in order of occurance from my thought proccess after seeing a picture of the sleeve, but of course it could be something else (even foreign material).

Edit:

Just for reference. Dry sleeves. These sleeves do not have coolant around them, hence the dry concept. Coolant flows around the outer section as pictured and not the 'inner' sleeve in this case.
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Old 12-16-2009, 11:40 PM
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Re: took my motor apart and.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilbluelude View Post
Pics please... Sounds like iron sleeves to me from description...

Sleeves arent necessarily thick pieces at all and can be as thin as a credit card.

Let us see what your talking about so we can understand.




Blocks.. NO, they are not the same.

Basic information:

92-96 block - closed deck
97-01+ block - open deck

92-97: 50mm main bearings -50mm crank obviously crank has to match
98-01: 55mm main bearings- 55mm crank

*yes, note 97 is included in the 50mm category...


Heads.. Yes, they will interchange without any issues...

*Use Headgasket that matches the block!




Pics before you call this dead...
if you don't mind me asking how did 97 go open block but retain the smaller main bearings?
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:07 AM
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Re: took my motor apart and.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
if you don't mind me asking how did 97 go open block but retain the smaller main bearings?
Well.. Im not a Honda engine design engineer.. So, I dont know the exact reason they chose to change the crankshaft and when they did it.

I can assume it had something to do with conforming to the F series crankshaft designs at the time. I also might 'think' it could have been a strength issue theory some engineer had about shearing crankshafts, which is done at the thinnest portion most commonly.

I also would like to add that some 98 built H22a4's also had 50mm cranks, but its less than 5% I imagine. I know the switch was end of 97 and obviously trying to synchronize crankshaft manufacturers and block manufacturers lead to a few engines produced early on in 1998 having the old 50mm mains.

Of course, if you wish to get more confused about all of this.... think about car sales and year inconsistencies. selling a 97 model car in 1996 and so forth... Therefore, its really hard to pinpoint when the last 50mm H22a4 rolled out. But, according to all documentation we have, 1997 was the last year of the 50mm main journal size.

ALSO... H22A's dont apply to these rules.
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Old 12-17-2009, 08:49 AM
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Re: took my motor apart and.....

they arent even scratches on the cylinder wall, they are almost like smooth ripples as if it was distorted. i've never seen anything like it.

i was thinking of replacing that damaged sleeve with a new one of the same size and using the same piston to get it running. is this a bad idea? can it be done?
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Old 12-17-2009, 10:19 AM
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Re: took my motor apart and.....

Step 1: Take motor as is to machine shop

Step 2: Talk to your machine shop. They 'should' be able to tell you more than I can from here about it all after really looking at it..

***If they look at you clueless or tell you they dont know much about them Honda motors... Best bet is to say thanks and employ a new machine shop.
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Old 12-17-2009, 11:41 AM
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so in the picture i posted, that tiny horizontal crack in the aluminum between the two sleeves, how does that happen when they resleeve it? or could it be a result of it cracking from overheating? im trying to understand before i take this damn thing all the way to the machine shop 30 minutes away. mind you i don't have a truck to put it in

i magnified the picture just to make sure we are talking about the same crack between the cylinders


By aalvarez3, shot with DSC-W100 at 2009-12-17

ok so a machinist friend of mine came over to take a look. he told me it is possible to bore out that one sleeve .020 over and use the adequate rings while still using the same sized piston. is that something i would be interested in doing or should i stay away from that?

Last edited by hotrod; 12-20-2009 at 10:09 PM. Reason: merging back to back posts.
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:18 PM
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Re: took my motor apart and.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by aalvarez3 View Post
ok so a machinist friend of mine came over to take a look. he told me it is possible to bore out that one sleeve .020 over and use the adequate rings while still using the same sized piston. is that something i would be interested in doing or should i stay away from that?
if you ever plan on beating the engine or racing or turbo or anything really i wouldn't go with 1 bored cylinder and wacky rings sounds unsafe im no expert though...
p.s. have you even figured out exactly went wrong in the first place? again i wouldn't do it unless i had found what went wrong originally then if its something minuscule in comparison i guess go with it

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Old 12-19-2009, 12:51 AM
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Re: took my motor apart and.....

bump. anyone have any idea what the little cracks could be from???
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Old 12-19-2009, 04:23 PM
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the cracks...

1.poor job machining.. 2.poor job on sleeve installation. 3.free play in the sleeves as noted by the nonround cylinder hole picture. 4.detonation issues from a non-tuned turbo car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aalvarez3 View Post
crack Im referencing is shown on left cylinder pictured at top of picture.
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:16 PM
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Re: took my motor apart and.....

this is the crack im talking about here between the 2 sleeves. there is one between every 2 sleeves.

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Old 12-19-2009, 07:16 PM
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Re: took my motor apart and.....

whoops. yea, I realize the crack your talking about.

I was saying that the other one, or what appears to be a gap in the sleeve and aluminum on the same cylinder caused it.
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Old 12-20-2009, 03:44 PM
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Re: took my motor apart and.....

saw that too......whoever did this was a real turd when it came to anything mechanical....do research people.... with all cars....they're dying!! :(
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