Honda Prelude Forum

Rebel_Luder98 · #1 (**permalink**) 11-12-2009, 08:37 PM

So after some research, and alot of input from some guys on here and on preludepower.com, i've decided to go for it, and swap a H23A Vtec(blue top) in my 98 base.
gonna try and keep it pretty simple, nothing crazy to crazy of a build. but heres what i'm thinkin of doin so far,

Jdm H23a Vtec (Blue Top)
-Balanced Crank/Pistons/Rods
-8lb Fidenza Flywheel (Already on the car)
-Stage 1 Competition clutch (Already on the car)
-Skunk2 Stage 1 Pro Series Cams
-Port Matched Skunk2 IM w/ a hondata gasket
-Ebay CAI W/Injen Filter (Already on the car)
-ESP 4-2-1 header (Already on the car)
-Greddy Ti-c Cat Back (Already on the car)
-Tuned P28 on Crome By "Rich Tuned" on 15Dec2009

what'ca think? is 230whp a realistic goal for this set up?

Edit: Found out the stock H23A Blue Top TB is actually a 65.5mm Throttle Body that tappers to 62mm on inside (Same as Euro R/ Type S)
so no need for a s2k tb any more

HpreludeH · #2 (**permalink**) 11-12-2009, 09:01 PM

sounds interesting! cant wait to see it in reality and yea thats pretty realistic i dont see why you wont stick with the h22 lol but standing out is always better IMO good luck!!

Rebel_Luder98 · #3 (**permalink**) 11-12-2009, 09:05 PM

i was thinking to stay h22, but i like the longer stroke on the h23. and just to do something thats not a everyday swap..
plus with the balancing i should be able to rev it out just as far as a h22. gonna do probably like 8400 redline

thanks man

HpreludeH · #4 (**permalink**) 11-12-2009, 09:31 PM

sounds good! and interesting now you might know this more than me but the h23 vtec (bluetop) header and intake manifold interchanable with the h23a1 and f22a1? thanks

Rebel_Luder98 · #5 (**permalink**) 11-12-2009, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HpreludeH

sounds good! and interesting now you might know this more than me but the h23 vtec (bluetop) header and intake manifold interchanable with the h23a1 and f22a1? thanks

actually no. as far as header and intake mani's go for it, you use the same ones you would use for a h22a. because literally all the h23a vtec blue top motor is, is a h23a bottom end with a h22a head on it(pretty sure its the same as a type s/euro r head).
just like the Frankenstein h22/h23 build that some people do, but done from the factory..

thanks man

HpreludeH · #6 (**permalink**) 11-12-2009, 10:20 PM

ooh okay man preciate it one of my friends said ooh you can get it but theres no aftermarket parts for it and i was like theres no way but i just figured since it says h23 the bolt line up would be the same as an h23 but thanks for the info man i might look into this now and also is it technically the same thing as an f20b besides liter size?

Rebel_Luder98 · #7 (**permalink**) 11-12-2009, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HpreludeH

ooh okay man preciate it one of my friends said ooh you can get it but theres no aftermarket parts for it and i was like theres no way but i just figured since it says h23 the bolt line up would be the same as an h23 but thanks for the info man i might look into this now and also is it technically the same thing as an f20b besides liter size?

ya no problem, the reason you cant find any aftermarket parts for it, is because there no reason to make parts specifically for it.
and no externally its identical to a h22a.

basically just think of it as nothing more then a stroked h22a..

HpreludeH · #8 (**permalink**) 11-12-2009, 10:36 PM

ooh alright thanks and hope you go through with the build ill look into it more bc ive been interested in a swap since day 1!

HpreludeH · #9 (**permalink**) 11-12-2009, 10:47 PM

ok one more quick question this is kind of a noob question. but i looked into the specs and all that and since my car origonally came with obd1 ecu and harness would i need to get a jumper harness even if i get the ecu and harness included with the h23 vtec swap and its for a 95 prelude if that makes any difference. if i left out any thing you need to know let me know thanks!

Rebel_Luder98 · #10 (**permalink**) 11-12-2009, 11:11 PM

actually think what you would have to do(or atleast what i would do) is switch out the dizzy, oil pump, and other required peices(cant think right now) to switch the h23 vtec back to obd1.. and then just run a chipped/tuned ecu..

*wishing someone who knew more about switching to obd1 would come in*

HpreludeH · #11 (**permalink**) 11-12-2009, 11:16 PM

naw man lol i met like i have an obd1 now. lets say i got an obd2 ecu and wire harness would i need to modify anything to my car since it was "origonally" obd1?

considering i got the full swap (motor, trans, mounts obd2 ecu, wire harness)

SKEW · #12 (**permalink**) 11-13-2009, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebel_Luder98

actually think what you would have to do(or atleast what i would do) is switch out the dizzy, oil pump, and other required peices(cant think right now) to switch the h23 vtec back to obd1.. and then just run a chipped/tuned ecu..

*wishing someone who knew more about switching to obd1 would come in*

didnt we talk about this?

Rebel_Luder98 · #13 (**permalink**) 11-13-2009, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SKEW

didnt we talk about this?

ya we talked about going from obd1 engine and converting it to obd2. but he is talking about converting his car to obd2...

which honeslty i dont see why you would want to..

SKEW · #14 (**permalink**) 11-13-2009, 12:30 AM

Quoted from artifex from OP:

Let me try and summarize the issues for you:

OBD2, everything else aside, is the best technology from a user's perspective. It has a better ability to diagnose problems, and is more reliable in general. However, none of this generation's OBD2 computers are programmable (at all, so don't believe the ricers). If you want to tune your car, you have to convert to OBD1 (for a Honda of this generation). You could go with a piggyback system with OBD2, but that is a low quality solution and doesn't buy you very much, except maybe a few horsepower on the very top end.

OBD1 Hondas are nice because they are extremely well understood. They are very tunable in general. However, in 90% of the states in the USA, converting to OBD1 means you will fail smog inspection. If you show up with an OBD1 computer, you will fail and you will have to return it to stock in order to pass the emissions test. For this reason it's a huge pain in the ass.

If you buy a JDM H22, those are all considered OBD1 motors. You can convert them to run using OBD2 hardware if you want. The key is to make sure the ignition timing is 1-2 degrees lower so you don't have detonation. The JDM motors run higher compression, so you shouldn't just throw an OBD2 ECU on it and call it a day (unless you run higher than 93 octane on the car all the time).

If you ever go forced induction, you have no choice. You will have to run either a full standalone EMS or an OBD1-style system at some point. However, you have the option to keep your OEM hardware up until you want to go that route.

Rebel_Luder98 · #15 (**permalink**) 11-13-2009, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SKEW

Quoted from artifex from OP:

Let me try and summarize the issues for you:

OBD2, everything else aside, is the best technology from a user's perspective. It has a better ability to diagnose problems, and is more reliable in general. However, none of this generation's OBD2 computers are programmable (at all, so don't believe the ricers). If you want to tune your car, you have to convert to OBD1 (for a Honda of this generation). You could go with a piggyback system with OBD2, but that is a low quality solution and doesn't buy you very much, except maybe a few horsepower on the very top end.

OBD1 Hondas are nice because they are extremely well understood. They are very tunable in general. However, in 90% of the states in the USA, converting to OBD1 means you will fail smog inspection. If you show up with an OBD1 computer, you will fail and you will have to return it to stock in order to pass the emissions test. For this reason it's a huge pain in the ass.

If you buy a JDM H22, those are all considered OBD1 motors. You can convert them to run using OBD2 hardware if you want. The key is to make sure the ignition timing is 1-2 degrees lower so you don't have detonation. The JDM motors run higher compression, so you shouldn't just throw an OBD2 ECU on it and call it a day (unless you run higher than 93 octane on the car all the time).

If you ever go forced induction, you have no choice. You will have to run either a full standalone EMS or an OBD1-style system at some point. However, you have the option to keep your OEM hardware up until you want to go that route.

...rep given...

HpreludeH · #16 (**permalink**) 11-13-2009, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SKEW

Quoted from artifex from OP:

Let me try and summarize the issues for you:

OBD2, everything else aside, is the best technology from a user's perspective. It has a better ability to diagnose problems, and is more reliable in general. However, none of this generation's OBD2 computers are programmable (at all, so don't believe the ricers). If you want to tune your car, you have to convert to OBD1 (for a Honda of this generation). You could go with a piggyback system with OBD2, but that is a low quality solution and doesn't buy you very much, except maybe a few horsepower on the very top end.

OBD1 Hondas are nice because they are extremely well understood. They are very tunable in general. However, in 90% of the states in the USA, converting to OBD1 means you will fail smog inspection. If you show up with an OBD1 computer, you will fail and you will have to return it to stock in order to pass the emissions test. For this reason it's a huge pain in the ass.

If you buy a JDM H22, those are all considered OBD1 motors. You can convert them to run using OBD2 hardware if you want. The key is to make sure the ignition timing is 1-2 degrees lower so you don't have detonation. The JDM motors run higher compression, so you shouldn't just throw an OBD2 ECU on it and call it a day (unless you run higher than 93 octane on the car all the time).

If you ever go forced induction, you have no choice. You will have to run either a full standalone EMS or an OBD1-style system at some point. However, you have the option to keep your OEM hardware up until you want to go that route.

damm man thanks! just learned a good amount right there thats mainly where my flaw is with honda is knowin the ecu and swapping to what lol evrything else im alright at knowing but thanks for the tips. the reason i said something about converting it is because i looked up the specs and it said it was only avalible in obd2 so i didnt know but thanks guys!

HardKnoxBB2 · #17 (**permalink**) 11-13-2009, 08:21 AM

If you plan on having the crank balanced you might as well have the rods and pistons done too. You will be much better off with a stock intake box with a K&N air filter or or an aftermarket inatake that has actually had thought put into it. You would also be better off with a euro r IM and a stock header. Unless you feel like purchasing a Bisimoto header that runs for aroun $800 bucks but is well worth the gains. Your Cams all depend on where you want your gains... I'll let you do the research for that. You should have the head ported and polished and have the IM ported to match the head.

I will be honest though. If you are going to go through all the trouble of tearing it down and basically rebuilding it I think you should just keep your H22 because the extra money you would be spending on the engine will not be worth the small torque difference that you can hit with your h22. Just my honest opinion.

Rebel_Luder98 · #18 (**permalink**) 11-13-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BB2H22A4

If you plan on having the crank balanced you might as well have the rods and pistons done too. You will be much better off with a stock intake box with a K&N air filter or or an aftermarket inatake that has actually had thought put into it. You would also be better off with a euro r IM and a stock header. Unless you feel like purchasing a Bisimoto header that runs for aroun $800 bucks but is well worth the gains. Your Cams all depend on where you want your gains... I'll let you do the research for that. You should have the head ported and polished and have the IM ported to match the head.

I will be honest though. If you are going to go through all the trouble of tearing it down and basically rebuilding it I think you should just keep your H22 because the extra money you would be spending on the engine will not be worth the small torque difference that you can hit with your h22. Just my honest opinion.

i was thinking about having the rods and pistons balanced as well. but i'm not wanting to tear down the entire engine.. i can drop the crank out the bottom with out pulling off the head.

and i have to say i disagree with the statement a stock air box is going to be my best bet for power.. if that were true all the aftermarket companys that make intakes would never sell anything.

i would do the euro-r intake mani but i already have the skunk2 im. that i just bought maybe 9 months ago. and so i'm just going to reuse it. and why a stock header over a Esp? everything i've ever read is that the esp is supposed to about the best for the money..

and i am going to have the im port matched to the head, not to worried about doing a full on pnp though. i'm not tryin to make a huge amount of power. i guess you could say i'm going for a budget build..

and the reason i'm not keeping the h22 thats in my car now, is because it has a rod knock. who ever had it before me beat the hell out of it.

Stealthx47 · #19 (**permalink**) 11-13-2009, 02:40 PM

Accually everything in the bottom end is exactly the same other then the crank.... Its just an H23 Crank.

And im running a stock airbox because it pulls air from outside the fender. Most aftermarket intakes pull air from inside the engine. And the only intake that gives u more power is AEM V2 and thats 1-2 horsepower. Not worth it. Go boost.

BTW you know u cant rev out the H23 as high right? The H22 will still beat it stock for stock

Rebel_Luder98 · #20 (**permalink**) 11-13-2009, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealthx47

Accually everything in the bottom end is exactly the same other then the crank.... Its just an H23 Crank.

And im running a stock airbox because it pulls air from outside the fender. Most aftermarket intakes pull air from inside the engine. And the only intake that gives u more power is AEM V2 and thats 1-2 horsepower. Not worth it. Go boost.

BTW you know u cant rev out the H23 as high right? The H22 will still beat it stock for stock

ya, actually i think the bottom end is a little bit different.. basically a stroked bottom end compared to a h22a.. so crank, rods, and i think the h23 pistons are slightly different as well..

ya i plan on using a cai which also pulls air from outside the engine bay. so should be alright.

N/A for life.

lol

UPSluder · #21 (**permalink**) 11-13-2009, 05:57 PM

type s intake with k&n filter FTW. mostly all the aftermarket intakes are garbage

mortifiedvictim · #22 (**permalink**) 11-13-2009, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebel_Luder98

and i have to say i disagree with the statement a stock air box is going to be my best bet for power.. if that were true all the aftermarket companys that make intakes would never sell anything.

CAI, SRI, etc: everyone knows that they don't produce much power for the money but they sound sweet as hell. I'm the only one looking at my engine so: EBAY CAI FTW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebel_Luder98

i would do the euro-r intake mani but i already have the skunk2 im. that i just bought maybe 9 months ago. and so i'm just going to reuse it. and why a stock header over a Esp? everything i've ever read is that the esp is supposed to about the best for the money..

I like the skunk2 IM, not a lot of gains on a modestly built engine but better than stock. Unfortunately the same can be said for the ESP header. Not a lot of gains for your build, mostly cosmetic, the $ can likely be better spent on something else but everyone likes shiny headers so your call there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebel_Luder98

and the reason i'm not keeping the h22 thats in my car now, is because it has a rod knock. who ever had it before me beat the hell out of it.

With the money you would save buy not buying the H23 (and not paying to have it balanced) you could buy rods and pistons for your block (unless it needs sleeved too, then f that buy the H23 lol).

Quote:

Originally Posted by UPSluder

type s intake with k&n filter FTW. mostly all the aftermarket intakes are garbage

Awe... but they sound better lol.

Rebel_Luder98 · #23 (**permalink**) 11-13-2009, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mortifiedvictim

CAI, SRI, etc: everyone knows that they don't produce much power for the money but they sound sweet as hell. I'm the only one looking at my engine so: EBAY CAI FTW.

I like the skunk2 IM, not a lot of gains on a modestly built engine but better than stock. Unfortunately the same can be said for the ESP header. Not a lot of gains for your build, mostly cosmetic, the $ can likely be better spent on something else but everyone likes shiny headers so your call there.

With the money you would save buy not buying the H23 (and not paying to have it balanced) you could buy rods and pistons for your block (unless it needs sleeved too, then f that buy the H23 lol).

Awe... but they sound better lol.

...X2!

deffintly agree with "CAI, SRI, etc: everyone knows that they don't produce much power for the money but they sound sweet as hell. I'm the only one looking at my engine so: EBAY CAI FTW."

i'm gonna use one of the one peice ebay cai with k&n filter on it.

and ya if i were to rebuild my engine i have now, i would probably be sleeving it.. and spending way more on it then i need to.. i know me to well..

and as far as cost, i was talking to my shop and with the parts/labor/tuning and everything i'm looking at roughly $2800.. sound about right?

mortifiedvictim · #24 (**permalink**) 11-13-2009, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebel_Luder98

and i have to say i disagree with the statement a stock air box is going to be my best bet for power.. if that were true all the aftermarket companys that make intakes would never sell anything.

IDK how I missed this. ROFLMFAO. Should I make this part of my sig?

There is another thread on here or another prelude site that has dyno's of different intakes and the difference is practically negligible. Like many things the gains are contingent on your build. On a boosted lude you might actually gain 5HP on an aftermarket CAI vs stock box, but on your build I doubt it will he 1 whole HP different. Some SRI were worst than stock as it pulled in hotter air than the stock box.

That's like saying that they guys selling those "chips" you put on your MAF that boost 5-20HP must work or they would never sell anything.

It's not about if it works, its about how you market it. There's a saying in retail "perception is reality." Meaning if you believe it will gain you HP then your brain will give you the placebo effect whether it actually gains HP or not. I'm not doubting your technical expertise or the amount of research you've done but everyone gets fooled with marketing, until you see the dyno.

All in all, grats on your build it sounds like it will come together very nicely.

mortifiedvictim · #25 (**permalink**) 11-13-2009, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebel_Luder98

and as far as cost, i was talking to my shop and with the parts/labor/tuning and everything i'm looking at roughly $2800.. sound about right?

I think that sounds very fair. Job well done. When it's done post it up so we can drool some.

Rebel_Luder98 · #26 (**permalink**) 11-13-2009, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mortifiedvictim

IDK how I missed this. ROFLMFAO. Should I make this part of my sig?

There is another thread on here or another prelude site that has dyno's of different intakes and the difference is practically negligible. Like many things the gains are contingent on your build. On a boosted lude you might actually gain 5HP on an aftermarket CAI vs stock box, but on your build I doubt it will he 1 whole HP different. Some SRI were worst than stock as it pulled in hotter air than the stock box.

That's like saying that they guys selling those "chips" you put on your MAF that boost 5-20HP must work or they would never sell anything.

It's not about if it works, its about how you market it. There's a saying in retail "perception is reality." Meaning if you believe it will gain you HP then your brain will give you the placebo effect whether it actually gains HP or not. I'm not doubting your technical expertise or the amount of research you've done but everyone gets fooled with marketing, until you see the dyno.

All in all, grats on your build it sounds like it will come together very nicely.

ya, i see what your sayin, exactly why i'm not going to run a SRI, deffintely going with a CAI, and i'm not trying to get like 10 horsepower out of an intake, like they try and say you'll get. i know better then that.

ok ya you make a good point with the ebay power chips.. lol

thanks man, i cant wait to get it done!

Rebel_Luder98 · #27 (**permalink**) 11-13-2009, 07:24 PM

ahhh double post

Rebel_Luder98 · #28 (**permalink**) 11-13-2009, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mortifiedvictim

I think that sounds very fair. Job well done. When it's done post it up so we can drool some.

will do, i'll try and have pics of the whole way through it.

oh ya and just found out something. decided not to run the s2k tb because i guess the one that comes on the h23 blue top is a 65.5mm Throttle Body that tappers to 62mm on inside (Same as Euro R/ Type S)!!

blue · #29 (**permalink**) 11-13-2009, 07:52 PM

I very much doubt the throttle body is huge. Auto Hondas tend to have smaller ones. Could be wrong, of course.

The ESP header is the most expensive DC header you'll ever buy. For the same price you could get an ebay "hytech" knockoff. Which is the no-brainer header for the money, for all of its caveats.

The S2 manifold is not bad. It's close to a tossup with the Euro-R. It is more of an upper RPMs manifold than the Euro-R, but of course high RPM gain is the way to make meaningful power with NA engines...so don't let people tell you otherwise. A stockish H23, though, will want to rev less than a H22.

You realize that "balancing" the crank will involve completely rebuilding the motor to do something Honda probably did a decent job of from the start? The high performance Hondas tend to have pretty well put together bottom ends...although the H23 lies on an interesting crossroads.

Rebel_Luder98 · #30 (**permalink**) 11-13-2009, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue

I very much doubt the throttle body is huge. Auto Hondas tend to have smaller ones. Could be wrong, of course.

The ESP header is the most expensive DC header you'll ever buy. For the same price you could get an ebay "hytech" knockoff. Which is the no-brainer header for the money, for all of its caveats.

The S2 manifold is not bad. It's close to a tossup with the Euro-R. It is more of an upper RPMs manifold than the Euro-R, but of course high RPM gain is the way to make meaningful power with NA engines...so don't let people tell you otherwise. A stockish H23, though, will want to rev less than a H22.

You realize that "balancing" the crank will involve completely rebuilding the motor to do something Honda probably did a decent job of from the start? The high performance Hondas tend to have pretty well put together bottom ends...although the H23 lies on an interesting crossroads.

ya i was goin to balance the crank and flywheel because like you said, it is a h23 still and its kind of a toss up. so i'd rather be safe then sorry. and really i dont have to rebuild the whole thing to do it either. i can drop the crank out the bottom without pulling the head. its too easy.

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