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CEL on when warm. Power loss.

 
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Old 08-14-2015, 01:49 AM
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CEL on when warm. Power loss.

So as the title says. The CEL on comes on when the car is warm. When it comes on the car definitely feels like a power loss. Big time power loss. So far i've replaced the following:

Timing Belt - yes I have checked timing and it's good.
Could this be the case if its a tooth off??? I'm sure I did it correctly but just an idea.

Knock sensor

O2 sensor - thought this was the cause but no luck.

New distributor - Fairly new spark plugs and wires. Still had the problem even with the old one. Gonna get new ones as well.

IACV

Oil change?

I'm really out of ideas. Would a misfire cause anything like this? When the light comes on if I turn the car off then back on the CEL clears for awhile.

Also to mention the car has a really high pitched squeel when accelerating. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm really hoping it's just a sensor or something. I'm really hoping for a simple fix and not anything major. I've done alot of things as far as maintenances so I'm kinda stuck here just scratching my head wondering what the heck is going on with my car. It's aggravating and annoying.
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Old 08-15-2015, 03:01 PM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

pull code, then decisions can commence...
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Old 08-23-2015, 03:42 PM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

Finally got to pulling the codes I'm on a busy schedule. The code it threw was the tps sensor. 7 blinks. I replaced and recalibrated and reseted. Car drives fine for the first 10 minutes then the cel came back on??? It's a bit frustrating but I'm not too sure what it is now. I went back and pulled the code and the cel just stays on. I'm not too sure of what this code is! I've looked at the list and I'm guessing it's code 0? Bad ECM? or does code 0 mean it doesnt turn on? It's got me a little confused now but if anyone can help me I'd gladly appreciate it.
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Old 08-23-2015, 05:19 PM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

All Gen. Prelude Service Manuals
^^ this might help.
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welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
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Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
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I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

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Old 08-24-2015, 12:12 AM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

Well so I decided to go ahead take the car out because I had a few errands. The second to last turn into my neighborhood the car all of a sudden stalled. Tried starting and it cranked but didnt start. Pushed it home and tried to start it anyways and it fired right up! Drove into the garage to park and did another test to see what codes.

code list were:

23 - Knock sensor

15 - Ignition output failure.

Now my conclusion to this is probably a bad ignitor. During hot conditions the ignitor would and cause the engine to turn off. After letting it cool for awhile it will work again.

My question is that since I already replaced the knock sensor can a bad ignitor trigger a cel for knock sensor? It's not that hard of a replacement but it is about 100 bucks just for a new one so if the ignitor fails and causes spark knock then this is a possible cause right?
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Old 08-24-2015, 01:38 AM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

so i decided to do a drive around the block and it does definitely randomly shut off. I tried to start it and still just cranks and doesnt start. After sitting there for about 5-10 minutes it started up just fine. Will be replacing tomorrow and will keep you guys updated.
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Old 08-24-2015, 09:38 AM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

sometimes you get a knock sensor cel because there is a knocking...why it's called a "knock sensor code", and not a "knock sensor has gone bad code".
Unfortunately they fail so often folks automatically figure the code means the sensor has failed.
Your car failing to ignite fuel properly could cause a brief knocking in the valve train, therefore triggering a knock sensor cel.
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welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
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Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
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I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead
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Old 08-24-2015, 12:13 PM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

I 2ND what Bykfixer said... ^^^
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Old 08-24-2015, 12:42 PM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

Hope that didn't come off as smart@$$...
I noticed sometimes my attempt at humor causes paper cuts...
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
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Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead
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Old 08-24-2015, 02:23 PM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

not at all bro. That's actually the question I meant to ask that if it's throwing the knock sensor code because of that. So replacing the ignitor would solve the 2 problems with it.
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Old 08-24-2015, 03:15 PM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

Well that I dunno....potentially yes if running sloppily is causing a knock and the ignitor is the trouble. But lets say for kix n giggles you run an 85 octane fuel...that could cause a valve ping enough to cause the ks to light. Try resetting the ecu, and start the car. Rev it to about 3600 rpm's. If the CEL is not on right away or doesn't come on soon, it's not likely a bad knock sensor as when it has failed you always get a cel after revving past 3500. Then it stays lit until you reset the ECU.

Oh, and if you didn't install it with pipe tape on the threads, sometimes those minor vibrations trigger a CEL in Corvettes n Camaros (which use the same type guts), so I used it on my Prelude.
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead

Last edited by bykfixer; 08-24-2015 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 08-25-2015, 12:56 AM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

thanks bykfixer. I tried the test you told me and no i didnt get a CEL on. So i'm guessing it isnt a bad sensor. Gonna getting some pipe tape and trying that. Continuing on...

Ignitor replaced and runs good. For the whole day it seemed fine. Thought i had the prelude back up top notch. After going to wal mart and on the way back CEL came on after driving down past the first 2 or 3 lights. Got home and checked code again. Knock sensor came up again. 2 long blinks and 3 fast blinks.

Timing spot on -

Gonna do a tune up just for the heck of it anyways.

I pulled my #1 spark plug it was dry....#2 - #4 were wet. Does this indicate anything? I'm guessing this is my problem to why my knock sensor throwing a code. Just a guess but anyone else have any inputs to why or what could cause a knock light on?
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Old 08-25-2015, 08:14 AM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

Valve cover gaskets include gaskets around the plugs.

Until they foul don't sweat it.
I drove around a year with my cel lit due to knock sensor...
No worries, if something else goes wrong it'll flash.
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead
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Old 08-26-2015, 02:00 AM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

Sounds like for some reason either you engine is knocking, or thinks its knocking. So the ecu is pulling timing making the engine sluggish. If it pulls timing for too long, or can't pull it enough to satisfy its needs, it will set the knock code. Try unplugging the knock sensor and driving it around. My bet, its pinging and you just cant hear it. Did you have ks issues before your timing belt? If not, start there. Also you can try burning through the fuel you have now, then put the highest octane fuel you can find in. Or do what I do in my drag truck, go to your hobby store and buy a gallon of nitro methanol for rc cars. Mix this with your regular pump gas. I mix mine 5:1, but since your engine is a street engine, I would probably start around 20:1 or less.

In its simplest form, a knock sensor is only a piezo microphone/speaker like you find at radioshack or in a buzzer. As it is impacted the piezo crystals compact and output a small electrical charge. When seen on a lab scope you can clearly see large voltage spikes(relative) with minimal impact. Honda has several part numbers for these sensors depending on vehicle, and each is color coded. As the location changed throughout different vehicles, so did the sensitivity of the sensors. If you have the wrong sensor, it could be simply too sensitive. Also each ecu is tuned for the specific frequency of the correct sensor in the correct engine, changing ecus can cause false codes as well. A B18C will have a different frequency than a H22A, than a F22a, and so on.
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Old 08-26-2015, 02:06 AM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

If you pipe tape the sensor is unable to ground to the engine block. In order to have a power output it need a ground. Since this is a one wire, it finds its ground through its mounting base. I am pretty sure I remember a tsb about not using any kind of sealer on these, let me see what I can find.
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Old 08-26-2015, 06:34 PM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

Yeah I'm gonna get to this probably this weekend. Any ideas where to buy the pipe tape? Just a local hardware store or any specific ones to get it from? and about the knock sensor before the timing belt change the answer is no. After changing the timing belt I did not have this problem though. It's been about 5000 miles since my timing belt has been done. Just double checked to see if timing was okay the other day also and yes it was still good. Didn't jump a tooth and the distributor lined up fine with the block where i had it. I'm sure its like you said that it's either pining or something is tricking it to make it trigger. As far as pinging I dont hear anything besides my valves ticking but its been ticking for awhile now. Would a valve job help?

Also to mention the CEL doesnt come on right away either. Its usually about a 10 minute drive until it actually comes on. And sometimes it doesnt at all. Let me know if you got any other ideas to why this may happen. Any information helps. Thanks!
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Old 08-26-2015, 06:46 PM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

Just a quick mention that it is a H22A1 so I do only pump 91.
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Old 08-27-2015, 12:43 AM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

The tap of the valves is out side the frequency range to which the sensor/ecu is looking for, so no, this should not affect the sensor operation. I believe you that it is not pinging, but skeptical at the same time. Sometimes pinging can go unheard by the human ear. At the track I have melted holes through pistons and burned electrodes out of spark plugs and never a ping one until I had a dead hole. Anyways, let us know hew the teflon tape works. It would be nice if you had a scan tool so you could look at your data pids, it would make this a lot faster.
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Old 08-27-2015, 02:10 AM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

like you said luda8890 yes it would be nice to have a scan tool. Trying to get my hands on one but no one really likes the honda scene here so its a bit of annoyance to find. Worst case scenario I would have to take it to a shop to figure this out. I do want to get this issue resolved because it is my daily drive and seeing that light is like hearing your mom tell you to do your daily chores a thousand times over. And that story of a hole through your pistons and things...thanks luda8890 it just sounds so hopeful for me. lol im kidding.
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Old 08-27-2015, 06:59 AM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 93Prlude View Post
Just a quick mention that it is a H22A1 so I do only pump 91.
^^ 91 should be ok.
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead
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Old 08-27-2015, 05:51 PM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

I seriously doubt that your going to cause any damage, that's the beauty of the knock detection system, it just cuts power. My example was on a high comp, high rev engine. I only used it to illustrate that ping can be present but unheard. I would let you use one of my scanners but I would need a 3k deposit to cover the replacement cost if it doesn't get returned. If you have a laptop I can walk you through using it as a scan tool, but you need a heavily supported ecu from a civic/integra. A p72 has knock control.
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Old 09-14-2015, 12:09 AM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

Just an update for whoever is wondering about the issue here. The problem was fixed when I replaced the sensor again. I guess it was the luck of the draw with a bad sensor. Installed the new one with teflon tape and its been a little over weeks and no problems now.
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Old 09-14-2015, 12:14 AM
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Re: CEL on when warm. Power loss.

glad to hear it.
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