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1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

 
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Old 02-26-2015, 05:54 AM
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1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Greetings all and thanks for letting me join the forum.

My son recently picked up a 94 Prelude 5 speed 2.o lt. Drove it home and noticed the $WS light refusing to turn off. With the help if the manual and checking the 4WS CEL codes we found it came up with error 10 which was pointinng to one of the steering angle sensors being faulty. Followed the trouble shooting guide and found it pointed to the 4WS control unit needing replacing.

Replaced the unit with a known good unit from a wreckers and the same code has come up ass well as error 11 (which is a rear steering angle sensor it seems.

have pulled the clock/radio fuse numerous times thinking the fault may still be embedded in the system somewhere and it keeps picking up an old code.

Also must mention the previous owner replaced the original dash with what must be a digital version ?out of a later model.

Is there another means of resetting the 4WS control unit?
Can I hook up an OBD1 reader and where does it hook to if available?
Cold the dash replacement be the cause of this problem?
Can I just pull the warning light and ignore the fault? (Last resort option at this stage)

Any help you can offer would be appreciated. i have searched high and low and tried heaps of options without success to date apart from replacing all the sensors.

Cheers

Bulla
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Old 02-26-2015, 09:19 PM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Welcome to the forum.

Sounds like you've already done a bit of research on the matter. If you haven't come across it yet then there is a pretty comprehensive 4WS FAQ here USDM 4g 4ws Writeup - NTPOG Forums

Is there another means of resetting the 4WS control unit?
Nope, pulling the clock fuse should be resetting it. You could try pulling the 4WS fuse or disconnecting the battery for 10 seconds too. It sounds like there actually is a fault though. If you listen to the 4WS computer when you turn the car on, you should hear 3 rapid clicks from relays closing, then a short pause and another click. I know with mine the 4WS isn't functioning and the light doesn't go out until the last click.

Can I hook up an OBD1 reader and where does it hook to if available?
As far as I'm aware there is no diagnostics port on an OBD1 prelude and all of the various computers are not linked together, so the only way to do diagnostics is the old fashioned way.

Cold the dash replacement be the cause of this problem?
Not likely, the only part of the 4WS system that is in the dash is the indicator light. If an EL gauge cluster was swapped from another car that had 4WS too then there should be no difference.

Can I just pull the warning light and ignore the fault? (Last resort option at this stage)
Generally not. If the light stays on then the 4WS computer is in fail-safe mode which means the rear wheels will not turn with the front. There is a spring in the 4ws motor that is supposed to return the rear wheels to centre and hold them there whenever a fault occurs, but I know from experience that the spring is not strong enough to hold the back end in place. It's actually kind of scary and a more than a bit dangerous to drive with a non-functioning 4WS system.

If you still have the old 4WS computer then in a majority of cases they fail due to dry solder joints. There are some links on the NTPOG page linked above on how to repair one, might be handy as a spare or to sell if you can get it working again.

I can only suggest that you get friendly with a multi-meter. The service manual has some pretty comprehensive instructions on how to remove and test all of the various sensors. If you don't have it already then you can find it here. All Gen. Prelude Service Manuals the 4WS section starts at page 17-30.

You are correct that a code 11 is pointing to the rear sub steering angle sensor, but it could also be some damaged wiring. The only way to know for sure is to pull it and test it.

Best of luck with it all though.
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Old 02-26-2015, 09:45 PM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Good info!!! Good lookin' out!

Crazy question here. Could it be as simple as cleaning the sensor?
From what I understand with the 5th gen and some atts sensors, at times road grime causes sensors to throw codes.
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welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
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Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
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I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

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Last edited by bykfixer; 02-26-2015 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 02-27-2015, 07:32 AM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Thanks very much for the excellent replies so far, will do as suggested including cleaning the sensors. Could take awhile as I'm back at work for 6 days before I get the chance to fiddle again. I will post up my progress when I get a chance. Will start with a quick sensor clean as the son can do that while I am at work.

Cheers

Bulla
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Old 02-27-2015, 09:36 AM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

To start, I know zip about the 4ws system on that model. So I'll be using this thread as a catalyst to get me some knowledge.
That link you posted Tass? Great stuff. The basic imfo to propell ones mind into action as well as sharing with us another site to search at times.

I stated clean sensors thinking the angle/sub angle units may function like speed sensors or actually the tdc/cps sensors of the usdm H22 where debris can sorta 'blind' the sensor same as sticking cardboard between a refigerator magnet and the refrigerator.

Hope you get 'er fixed Bulla.
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead

Last edited by bykfixer; 02-27-2015 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 03-01-2015, 03:59 AM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Update, cleaned the sensors and the error 11 has disappeared however error 10 remains (front sub steering angle sensor) Error 10 appeared after posting original post. It feels a bit "notchy" compared to the rear sensor so we will look at replacing it and hopefully have the issue solved. Honda in their wisdom didnt use the same type of sensor so they cannot be swapped around to test unfortunately.

3 clicks occur when starting so sounds like the 4WS control unit is good.

More to follow hopefully

Cheers

Bulla
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Old 03-01-2015, 10:33 AM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Glad to hear code 11 is gone.

Yeah, and it isn't like there are bunch of those sensors laying around in NAPA stores etc...

Did you try the reset ecu, turn off car, turn on car, turn wheels lock to lock procedure?
The thread calls the sensor a plunger. I wonder if said plunger gets snagged...a simple tap or two may un-snag it if that's the case.

Sometimes that get the troublesome IACV operational again.
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead

Last edited by bykfixer; 03-01-2015 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 03-04-2015, 05:59 AM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

New (secondhand) sensor didn't change remove the error code so time to look at the wiring between the sensor and the Control Unit - might take some time since it's hitting 39C in the shade out here currently. Could be a night job I think. will see how things go.
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Old 03-04-2015, 07:57 AM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead

Last edited by bykfixer; 03-04-2015 at 08:31 AM.
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Old 03-04-2015, 05:51 PM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Wrong end of the spectrum there Byk, 39C is damn hot. I didn't even realise the OP is a fellow Aussie.

Best of luck with the fault finding though, all I can suggest is to look for the appropriate voltages at the 4WS computer itself. It might help narrow down the problem and saves pulling half the car apart.
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Old 03-04-2015, 07:24 PM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Haha, gotcha...wasn't thinking of weather with that pic.

It was a 'man this time is gonna be different' only to find out it wasn't pic...

Yeah I had forgotten you guys are in late summer..


^^ not summer here but...

I took this pic so that when it's 39c here I can think back to when it was 39f...
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead
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Old 03-04-2015, 08:03 PM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Definitely the opposite here in Roma unforunately. I'm sure when we did the fault finding last time there was no issue with voltages so you wold think by changing sensors and Control Unit things should be ok. Anyhow will start from scratch again just to confirm.

Wouldn't mind a bit of snow though.
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Old 03-04-2015, 08:29 PM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Last summer while working on a construction project it was about 39c in the shade a tv reporter drove up to ask us how we stand working in 100+ weather...one guy said "we think about how f@#&%in cold it's going to be in 6 months"
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead
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Old 03-05-2015, 06:45 AM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Ok - Still no luck with error 10 to date. met all thee requirements except cannot find 2.5v between the yellow/blue stripe on the 12pin connector. Everything else was good and this now points to the 4WS Control Unit again. Swapped with the spare Control Unit and still the same error, even checked the connector where it plugs in and have good continuity. Good circuit all the way from the Control Unit plug through to the Front Steering angler sensor also.

Plan next is to strip one of the 4WS Control units down and resolder any connections remotely linked to the 12Pin plug circuit just to be sure and see if that can remove the error My thoughts are that the fault has to be circuit board related error now. Its the only place the power is delivered from to each sensor.

Never thought it would be possible to get the same error on 2 different Control Units but am beginning to think with this car anything is possible.

Fingers crossed.
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Old 03-05-2015, 10:55 PM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Update: All fixed, light is gone and steering/4ws operates as designed. Spent 2 hours resoldering all the joints that looked dodgy (brownish scale on them) and the points where the 12 pin plug no. 22 wire was entering the board.

Must have finally done something right. All up about 20+ hrs of testing and retesting, secondhand 4WS Control unit ($185 aud) which we had to return as first one was faulty, front steering sensor ($85 aud).

Next in line is now Roadworthy/Safety Certificate then get it registered.

Thanks for all the help so far, bound to need more in the future I'd say.

Cheers

Bulla
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Old 03-05-2015, 11:39 PM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead
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Old 03-07-2015, 05:51 AM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Bugger The dreaded error 10 returned after we refitted the 4WS Control Unit back in its's position behind the seat and spent the day tinkering and checking items for the Preludes Safety Certificate inspection.

Double checked our previous fault finding up to the same point where we had a ??circuit board fault last time only to discover on closer inspection that the 12 pin plug seems to be the problem child. Only found this when doing a voltage & continuity checks on each wire. Found out the Yellow/Blue and the Yellow/Green wires both had intermittent position related faults. Holding pressure on the plug there was 2.5V on the correct wire but when pressure was released it dropped back to 0v. Must have had the position correct when we refitted the unit and tested it before mounting the other day.


Offending wires pointing upwards.

Found the 2 offending wires as shown in the top picture. Turns out I probably caused the fault as the probes from my multi-meter had damaged the connections inside the plug when I was troubleshooting.



So ended up cutting the plug off and fitting it to the spare 4WS control unit I had sitting on the workbench. This way I could test the plug itself a lot easier.



To rectify this so far I cut some 5mm pieces of auto wire, removed the insulation and packed these pieces into the dodgy connection points as shown above in the plug picture - apologise for poor focus. Tested on the bench and seems to have fixed the connection issues at this stage.

Hopefully after resoldering the plug back into the loom tomorrow we have more luck and the error 10 will hopefully disappear. More updates to follow with luck tomorrow night.

Moral of this story: make sure your multi-meter probes don't create more problems than help fix
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Old 03-07-2015, 09:07 AM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

prelude secret part #'s other treats
^^ this discusses replacing pins.

If you have damaged the wire where it inserts into the pin, the article shows part numbers with dimensions. Honda used (and still uses) Tyco to supply pins, connectors and pre-built assemblies.

There was an issue with wires breaking off at connections to pins so Honda created TSB 00-099 to teach their technicians how to replace the pins easily. Armed with that info you can replace the pair of pins you damaged.
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead
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Old 03-07-2015, 07:33 PM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Cheers for the link, will try and find some.
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Old 03-07-2015, 09:26 PM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Don't know where you buy parts in the land down under like we do in the states from warehouses that charge 30% off retail....but the pins retail for like 30 each.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead
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Old 03-08-2015, 12:08 AM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

For OEM parts I found that US parts warehouses will not ship to Aus directly, legally they're not allowed to as it is against Honda US's international distribution policy. There are a couple of third party people/companies that will purchase parts on your behalf and ship them though, Bongo was suggested to me and when I enquired through OEMacuraparts.com they put me on to a guy named Jim Slattery (Hondapartsjim) who could ship over here.

When I get OEM parts myself I go through JP-Carparts.com in Japan, the shipping is so much cheaper than out of the US. For aftermarket parts Rockauto.com is very popular here too. Unfortunately neither of these sites seem to offer the connectors you require.

Don't deal with Honda Australia, they're useless and very expensive. 90% of parts they just order from Japan anyway.
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Old 03-08-2015, 12:45 AM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Will look those places up and see how things go. Have fixed the issue again (fingers crossed) and the light has stayed off. started and tested about 10 times in a row and all good - no light.

Will see how we go after we recharge the battery - it was down a bit as didn't realise the boot being open left a light on so battery was almost dead.
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Old 03-08-2015, 10:02 AM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Man those 20 pinz are gonna be $8.99 before you get 'em.

How about Lings Honda? Any help to you guys down under?

I had a pin issue in my door harness where it wasn't playing nice with the keeper that holds it in the connector. When connecting male to female halves it kept backing out of the connector. It was the ground..very necessary.
I stuffed a chunk of toothpick beside the pin and pushed the pin home and door items have worked proper ever since. I had put in like 100 hours into rebuilding the connector and wasn't going to let that one stupid pin keep my windows from rolling down.
I guess what I'm saying is when you find a position of the wire/pin that works, add some toothpick around it to keep it from moving..kinda like an arm cast, until you can fix it proper.

Somewhere floating in cyber space are Honda wire and connector catalogs. They're out of print anymore. But they were like manuals for Honda cars up to like '96. I've yet to find one so far.

Edit:
Just found this:
http://www.hamotorsports.com/ecu-plugs-pins.html
Maybe they'll ship to ya or help out

http://honda-tech.com/honda-crx-ef-c...-plug-1573760/
^^ another how to.

A pdf addendum to our service manuals on how to separate connectors.
http://media.honda.co.uk/car/owner/m.../pdf/23-a3.pdf
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welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead

Last edited by bykfixer; 03-08-2015 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 03-08-2015, 07:22 PM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Excellent Bykfixer, will check these out and see how it goes. problem is fixed at the moment but will try and get some new pins in case it plays up again.

prices for parts from the US are like 40% of what we pay but then postage usually kills the deal. Buy most of my bike parts from Rocky Mountain ATV as they offer cheap DHL/Fedex freight andd given the price of parts here we can still save at least 50% incl freight when compared to buying same parts here.

Will check the links and see how we go.
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Old 03-08-2015, 07:48 PM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

That H A motorsports looks promising for ecu stuff.


I have found the discount on any order under like $75 is offset by S&H here. So I just either order several items or if I need say a $4 part I give my local stealership $7.95, as they charge more than retail.

One 30 minutes from my home knocks off 10% from retail. But unless I'm in the area I just cut my loss and buy local.
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead
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Old 03-14-2015, 02:32 AM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Another update:

4WS is working as designed with no issues luckily.

Keep getting a 4-2 ABS error code and on inspection found a new L front hib assembly had been fitted and the ABS wheel sensor was cable tied to the strut assembly and not where it should have been.

Drilled and tapped two mounting holes for the sensor to be located correctly as current hub assembly was not made for an ABS car. Fitted well but then had to remove and die-grind about 2mm (metric) off the hub as the air gap between the sensor and pickup on the axle was out of specs. However despite doing this we are still getting the same error code 4-2. Air gap is now just above minimum required.

Just wondering if the ABS control unit is located behind the trim panel next to the right rear seat? It's not in the trunk so figure the only place it appears in the manual is next to the rear seat behind the trim - the diagram showing location is not the greatest.

So if anyone can supply details of the ABS control unit location please share

Cheers

Bulla
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Old 03-15-2015, 09:40 AM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Sounds like you're almost there.
We have a saying in the States..
"There's a light at the end of the tunnel and this time it's not a train."


^^ the location in the 5th gen.
Rumor has it the Accord got the control unit in the rear and the 4th gen prelude got it up front.


Some more links for ya.
Honda & Acura Antilock Brakes

92 - 96 Prelude Wiring diagrams

92-96 4ws System

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthr...WS-ECU-Repair&


I had to download the scrib app to my android device to download the wiring and 4ws items by sean1211...now to figure out where they stored.lol.
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead

Last edited by bykfixer; 03-15-2015 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 03-15-2015, 10:57 AM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Mate you're a legend, would be lost without all of advice to date. Will check out those links and see how we go.

Much appreciated

Bulla
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Old 03-15-2015, 11:58 AM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulla View Post
Mate you're a legend, would be lost without all of advice to date. Will check out those links and see how we go.

Much appreciated

Bulla
Glad to help. Actually this thread has taught me a ton! So I'm just trying to pay it forward.

I'm sending you a pm about scribd.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead

Last edited by bykfixer; 03-15-2015 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 03-25-2015, 07:39 PM
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Re: 1994 Honda Prelude 4ws and reset issues

Located as per the manual behind the side panel rear right hand side. tested and found no resistance in front wheel sensor at the ABS unit plug. Disconnected both front wheel sensors - still no resistance reading as per manual. Ordered 2 wheel sensors from the wreckers hopefully to sort the problem.

Thinking the ABS only puts out one error at a time on the light as it never showed the second wheel sensor as being faulty when checked.

See how things go I suppose.
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