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4WS to 2WS swap

 
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Old 11-09-2014, 08:02 PM
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4WS to 2WS swap

So I'm looking to deleting my 4WS on my '94 JDM BB1 and I'm 95% sure I've covered everything I need. Just looking to double check my parts list before I start.

Before anyone asks why on earth I'd want to do this, the 'lude is a dedicated super-sprint track car and:
1) I have no use for the 4WS anymore, it does not make me faster.
2) I believe it to be dangerous on the track. It could fail at high speed and contrary to popular belief it does NOT centre correctly or predictably if the system goes offline.
3) Minor weight savings. The motor, computer and wiring all up should be at least 15KG.
4) Confidence. It might just be me but at the local track travelling at 170+KPH around a right hand sweeper and having the rear end track differently to the front is causing a few brown trouser moments.
5) Purchasing a non-4WS model and doing an engine swap is just not an option, they are way too rare down here so even a wrecked one will cost me $3000-$4000. If there were any Aussie delivered 'ludes without a sunroof then I may have considered it.

Anyway, here is my list:
2WS model rear subframe.
I've already managed to score one cheap from a mainland wrecker (there are no 'ludes locally), however they stripped it of all the bolts before shipping. I also did not get the toe arms with it. It's a little rough and could do with some paint.

Rear toe arms.
Looking at the Hard-Race adjustable ones with spherical bearings. A bit pricey but won't cost that much more than a second hand stock set. Hard-Race have a local dealer as well, making them nearly as cheap as shipping a Megan set out of the US.

Various nuts, bolts etc.
I need new lower control arm bolts where they connects into the 2WS subframe (2WS models do not have camber adjustment here, so the old bolts won't work).
New adjusting bolts, cam plates and nuts where the toe arms connect to the subframe (the old camber bolt from the 4WS won't fit). These don't come with the new toe arms either.
I'm going to go ahead and buy new subframe to chassis connection bolts, the service manual says these should be replaced anyway and for around $40 it's probably worth it.

I'm thinking I need a grommet where the old wiring for the computer passes through the body, I can't find anywhere what size this is though. I figure I'll just pick one up locally once I'm done.

My car does not have ABS, so the rear speed sensors should be able to come out. I think the 4WS model has an additional VSS, steering angle sensor and so on, but these should be ok to be unplugged until I get around to ripping them out.

Anyway, I think that's about it. I'd really like to replace all the bushes in the back end while it's out of the car, but that may have to wait until I have some more cash (spherical bearings are expensive). If anyone can think of anything else I've missed then please let me know. If anyone is interested in me doing a write-up of this when I'm done then I can do that too.
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Old 11-09-2014, 09:53 PM
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Re: 4WS to 2WS swap

Do the write up. That would be cool imo.

By now not many 4th gen 4ws systems even work anymore. So there may be other folks looking to do the same thing.
So if yours works, those parts are pretty scarce.
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Old 11-09-2014, 11:00 PM
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Re: 4WS to 2WS swap

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Originally Posted by bykfixer View Post
Do the write up. That would be cool imo.

By now not many 4th gen 4ws systems even work anymore. So there may be other folks looking to do the same thing.
So if yours works, those parts are pretty scarce.
Oh yeah, I should have mentioned. My 4WS system had already died on me many years ago, which is how I know how dangerous driving without a working computer can be. I didn't know much about cars back then so I had a mechanic fix it/rip me off, they ended up installing a working second hand computer and I had a $1,200 lighter wallet of which I think I paid about $500 for this damn "new" computer. I wish I had kept the "broken" one now I know they can sometimes be resurrected with some re-soldering (see here DIY 92-96 Prelude 4WS ECU Repair), or if I'd had known the future for the car I would have just deleted it back then. As of right now the system is fully functional. I do love freaking people out by showing them the back wheels moving.

All up I expect the swap to cost me around $475 AUD, which would only be about $200 if I lived in the US and had good access to wrecked parts. Gotta love the Aussie tax and our declining dollar value too. I can probably make a lot of that back by parting out what I have left over, working computers go for like $400+ down here. IDK how much the motor is worth (if anything) but I could end up making PROFIT!! Lol.
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Old 11-10-2014, 11:05 PM
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Re: 4WS to 2WS swap

Damn, double post. Update (sort of):

After doing more research, It looks as though a 2WS to 4WS swap would be easier than I thought or than many describe. It looks as though both models have the same front steering rack, but the 2WS models simply have a plug where the front sub-steering angle sensor goes, so an entire front steering rack swap is not necessary. Looking at the various part numbers though and it looks like purchasing a new rack guide, spring, rack guide screw and locknut are necessary in order for me to plug this at the cost of around $35 + a couple of bottles of P/S fluid. Once again it might be possible to source these from a wrecker however I suspect they wouldn't be too happy with someone destroying a P/S rack for a couple of $$ worth of parts, they'd probably make you buy the whole thing anyway. I might look at it again if I ever delete my P/S as it's not doing any harm staying where it is for now.

The front main steering angle sensor (on the steering column) looks like it can simply be removed and tossed aside. The steering column appears to just have a blank section where this would fit into beneath the combination switch.
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Old 11-11-2014, 08:04 AM
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Re: 4WS to 2WS swap

Just retrofit a mechanical 4ws in replacement of the original one and be done with it. I'm such an ignorant 4ws nut but hondstly a reliable 4ws DOES make it possible to turn better corners, the car was designed for formula 1 racing man... Other than the weight loss I agree with but unless your drag racing the car the extra weight just keeps you closer to the ground. Lower your centre of gravity I think...? Just because I don't agree with what ya doing, doesn't mean I can't wish you the best of luck into your endeavours though, and hey you might miss it!
Good on ya mate
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Old 11-11-2014, 09:48 PM
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Re: 4WS to 2WS swap

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Originally Posted by B20Ballin View Post
Just retrofit a mechanical 4ws in replacement of the original one and be done with it. I'm such an ignorant 4ws nut but hondstly a reliable 4ws DOES make it possible to turn better corners, the car was designed for formula 1 racing man... Other than the weight loss I agree with but unless your drag racing the car the extra weight just keeps you closer to the ground. Lower your centre of gravity I think...? Just because I don't agree with what ya doing, doesn't mean I can't wish you the best of luck into your endeavours though, and hey you might miss it!
Good on ya mate
Thanks for the encouragement mate.

I imagine changing it to mechanical would be a ridiculous amount of work, I wonder if anyone has tried it since 3rd gens and 4th gens share practically NO common components.

For anyone who doesn't know, in the 4th gens the 4WS is electronic and changes the amount of rear wheel deflection depending on the speed the car is travelling and the speed at which the steering wheel is turned. The back wheels only turn the opposite direction to the front wheels below around 30KPH (18MPH) anyway, and at no point except taking off am I doing such a low speed on the track. Above this speed the back wheels turn the SAME direction as the front, hindering high speed turn-in with the trade-off of slightly increased stability for overtaking etc. Sure, it's great for parking and city driving but tends to be a nuisance even at highway speeds, let alone much higher. This differs greatly from the 3G system which has a steering shaft up the guts of the car and turns the rear wheels proportionally opposite to the front at any speed. Trust me, I've weighed the benefits of keeping the 4WS and in my application I do not think there is any.

I have thought about the effect on the ride height due to the weight reduction too. After stripping out most of the interior the ride is about 1" higher in the back than before I started. I have Tein coilovers and enough adjustment left in them to wind them down to a better height, bringing the centre of gravity back down with it. My future plans are to mess around with spring rates to help the weight transfer too, I can take up to 10kg(f)/6kg(r) springs without a re-valve.

I know these cars weren't designed to ever see a track, trust me I already cop enough flak for it, then people see what sort of times this little (nearly stock) 2.2L FWD can do and they soon shut up. In a track car lighter is generally always better though, inertia is not your friend. I'm already starting to have issues with the back getting too light under heavy brakes so I need to work on the brake bias and shift some weight around, but I don't think keeping the 4WS is the key.

The way I plan on going about this swap too, it should be quite easy to reverse the process if I ever do change my mind.
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Old 11-12-2014, 04:17 PM
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Re: 4WS to 2WS swap

Sounds like your on track brah
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'90 Auto B20A5 80,000kms INX "DD/project/early mid life crisis car"
'98 auto b20b orthia "small time project"
'91 manual DA9 B18A1 integra "swapped orthia for"
'96 SS BB6 Honda prelude h22a SiR s-type" swapped integra for"
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Old 11-15-2014, 06:48 PM
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Re: 4WS to 2WS swap

I did the swap a couple years back. Was very simple. The subframe and the arms, remove the ecu and its bracketry and you are good to go. I know what you mean how the steering gets when the ecu goes out. Have to bring an extra pair of shorts for when you're driving on the freeway and the backside decides to go whichever way it wants to go..
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Old 11-15-2014, 09:28 PM
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Re: 4WS to 2WS swap

Try car-part.com for some used stuff if your local junkyards are ludeless.

Type in your zip code, province id or what ever. It's a world wide site.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead
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