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quick mm bore question

 
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Old 02-17-2009, 08:27 PM
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quick mm bore question

ok ok i am really sorry for flooding the forum with all my crap lately i need to make a donation or something to justify what ive been doing.

the cilinders are a lil worn in some places to the point that my machine shop guy advised me if he honed them till there smooth the rings would not seat as tight as i will need them to but it will work.
for optimal compresion hes going to have to go a lil over.
i can get these pistons in:
STD 87mm BORE
87.5mm (.020")
88.75mm (.030")
88mm (.040")
im about to order my pistons but i wanted to check my ass on this one...

according to http://www.attackforums.com/showthre...&threadid=1321 the unofficial h master (below E) the max bore is
"""the factory potential for overboring the stock 87mm is just .25mm"""

now i didnt graduate high school the first time but am i in the clear with:
87.5mm (.020")<-over pistions when the max bore is .25mm

the reason i ask is the aftermarket company is saying avaible .020 and the max widening potential .25mm theres a difference of a digit in those numbers.

i apericate anything yall can advise me on here.

-signed
one nervous H builder.
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Old 02-17-2009, 08:48 PM
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Re: quick mm bore question

the only two type S pistons are standard size which your A or B size which i went over with you in the other thread or .25mm (.010") OS. are you saying that the aftermarket company is telling you they have a .020" size type S piston? if your machinist cant get it done by just doing .25mm hone than you are better off just getting it resleeved and buying forged pistons. light scratches in your sleeve is ok. a rule of thumb check is to run your fingernail across the sleeve and if anything catches your nail than you need a hone.
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Old 02-17-2009, 09:41 PM
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Re: quick mm bore question

are you saying he will run the cilinder to thin going .020 over....
and the guy on the other link i threw up was saying .25mm is the max over....
im confused here

and take a look at the ebay listing for these pistons

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_Car-...3A1|240%3A1318
there advertising THESE PISTONS ARE AVALABLE IN
STD 87mm BORE
87.5mm (.020")
88.75mm (.030")
88mm (.040")

are these not genuine...

the scratches werent to bad but questionable in one area.
it was the overall cilinder wear as far as how much it had widened.
the rebuild was 100 percent possible on just a quick hone but if i wanted that factory fit, tighter than a nun's ***** i would have to go a lil bigger on the piston.

food for thought
when i took the car to honda for a valve adjustment when i first got it to get rid of a knocking sound and make shure the valves were in check, it didnt resolve the sound on cold starts, i had a 10 year honda master tech tell me it sounded like either the water pump was about to blow up or it was the sound of the rings so worn the piston was ratteling in the cilinder or the ring was against the pistion. and i am feeding you back EXACTLY what he told me.

*edit i should clarify....he explaned to me lets go bigger if you want this to last and fit tighter but he could do it with just a simple hone......what i guess im asking him to do is just an extended hone?
im going to tell him EXACTLY how far to go based off of the sizes i can get the piston in.....
im opting for the smallest oversize they offer 87.5mm (.020")

Last edited by Kronicus; 02-17-2009 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 02-18-2009, 12:15 PM
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Re: quick mm bore question

from all of the trusted websites that i have seen the biggest type S pistons go is .25mm (.010") over sized. if it were me i would not buy from ebay for really important parts. you are making a wise decision by going with the eagle rods and type s piston combo, thats what i plan on doing. i would just find the type s pistons from a reputable site and go with the .25mm OS. you could try the others from ebay but i wouldnt touch it.

the only aftermarket company that makes readily available pistons that will work with frm coating is Mahle and there has been mixed reviews on them.

HMO: Type S Pistons - $200

you will have to order the rings seperate but you can get them from majestic, for around $125 i think, i would post the link but it it wont lemme look on that site here at work for some reason.

as for the rods you will need part number: ESP-5630J3D and Laskey Racing says they can get various eagle rods for the H22 for $330, so i would email them and see if they can get you that part number.
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Old 02-18-2009, 02:20 PM
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Re: quick mm bore question

well because my moma didnt raise no fool either,
when i contsacted the after market company about the pistons avaibilty of quantity on hand as well as what were discussing here i got a suprising responce.
quote (uyuni)

If you order the Type S from Honda it is only available in STD and .25. We had them manufacture these for us in all oversizes and they are the P5P Type S piston. We went further and had them do an anodized deck as well as a low friction TEFLON coating that we had applied to the skirts. These are 2 additional steps over Honda. Make sure your machine shop is able to bore and hone Fiber Reinforced Metal. It takes special stones as well as blades but it can be done. it should be noted he has quite a few positive feedbacks on these pistons.

so now im back to the orignal question.
source A is telling me .25mm is the MAX bore potential on a frm sleeve.
i want to ground down the sleeves a little to get a exact tighter fit.
87.5mm (.020) over is the next step up that i can get.

now if .25mm is the max overbore than the biggest the cilinder can get is 87.25mm??????

now heres what im trying to understand...
the (.020") pistion is the (.020") <-inch measurmemnt, in inches is that bigger than .25mm.

because if the block needs to be opened up bigger than the stated max bore of .25mm to fit the 87.5mm (.020") pistion then we need to re-evaluate this.

see what im saying, is (.020") over, bigger than a (((.25mm overbore max spec. and thats also up on the aera web site honda has the tsb as well))

Last edited by Kronicus; 02-18-2009 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 02-18-2009, 04:46 PM
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Re: quick mm bore question

.020" is two times larger than .25mm, when i kept putting the (.010") next to the .25mm that means that .25mm = .010"

really this is all up to you i will just tell you what i would do.

talk to your machinist ask him if .010" bore is enough to fix all of the scratches in your cylinder walls, if after discussing it he says no that he will have to go at least .020" then say ok and go home and order some darton dry sleeves and forged pistons. this is going to be alot more costly as the sleeves themselves are around $400. but you will have alot tougher bottom end and you could go ahead and raise the compression a little bit higher to maybe say 11.5:1.
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Old 02-18-2009, 04:56 PM
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Re: quick mm bore question

are you trying to use forged pistons w/ the FRM H series sleeves?
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Old 02-18-2009, 05:05 PM
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Re: quick mm bore question

**** with a built bottom end you can go 12:1+ all day..ive seen 12:1 on stock parts with no problems. but yeah you cant really bore out FRM sleeves. a light hone is all, but it has to be done a certain way. and most shops dont know how b.c most all sleeves are iron.

just curious but why do you want to bore the motor so bad... why not a good competent hone
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:01 PM
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Re: quick mm bore question

i went down there, no mo0re emails or phone calls discussing numbers i went down there and discussed this with him.

a hone and slap togother will work fine if fine is good for you.
when you clean your rims do you wash them or do you CLEAN them.
its kinda one of these deals he advised me to up the pistion, i said i will do the research. now that i took a quick class in mm-inch conversion ( i failed algerba by the way) it all makes sence to me now.
im going to try and get the 10 over 87.25mm type s pistions with the rods you gave me a part number for and hand it over to the machine shop.
this is my shop btw http://budlongmotorsports.com/

o ya and i asked if a simple 10 over will work he said we could make that seal as tight as stock as long as we dont re-use stock.
the point wasent that i needed 20 over or i was advised to go that far i just got ebay sidetracked. those pistions are to big to use because acording to the tsb and the guy on attack forums that looks like he IS an H motor, .25mm is the max you want to go and thats why you can only get (as you said) type s in 10 over max.

he also stated that i was lucky enough to have a block with all the same size pistions

im not trying to go 12-1 11 will do me fine i was not finicanialy prepared to throw a few more itching for something to break parts without shelling out more money to make shure this motor will last as long as id like it to.
truth is i am not going to take apart another h motor even my own to build it until i have every single itty bitty expense pilled up and prepared for.
i e-built a b18 for my integra last night even with decent stuff i could hit 300+ with a turbo for like virturtially nothing compared to the h even if i did go turbo.
ARE YOU LISTENING KIDDOS because 4 months ago i was like you ready to CHUCK money into an engine and once your in to deep you still have to spend to get out.

Last edited by Kronicus; 02-18-2009 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:24 PM
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Re: quick mm bore question

ok bb6 i need another link.
i called the company in the link you provided for the type s piston hmo and they said they only have them and that honda only offers them in a or b
and was stunned when i said i was informed you can get these in 10 over
he responded like i was on crack.

edit* i called him back, to tell him it says on his web site it says oversized avaible and there all ready to ship.
well as i found out, honda DISCONTINUED the 10 over pistions SO STRIKE FAST

i have to find some NOW

edit*
check this out http://www.hondasociety.com/board/sh...d.php?t=118609
those ebay ones may be fake or may be really well made..lol

Last edited by Kronicus; 02-18-2009 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 02-18-2009, 11:24 PM
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Re: quick mm bore question

well that sucks cuz thats who i was gonna use too. here ya go just found these.

$380 with Rings
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Old 02-19-2009, 01:11 AM
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Re: quick mm bore question

were all scrued.
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Old 02-19-2009, 11:58 AM
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Re: quick mm bore question

are they not sellin them either?
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Old 02-19-2009, 08:56 PM
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Re: quick mm bore question

there not answering phone calls or emails
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Old 02-19-2009, 09:38 PM
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Re: quick mm bore question

called up the guys that make the ebay 87.50 20 over piston a while ago.

sounds very very legit but this is there offical website
http://www.hondatwincam.co.jp/
as he explaned, in clear very understandble non jap english.

i think he is his own call center.....for them i dunno
stated that the farthest they have ever gone on a oem cilinder is
40 over and to 10krpms on a full built unsleeved motor.

I COME ASKING TO YOU GUYS NOW WHATS THE FARTHEREST ANY OF YOU HAVE GONE INTO A OEM FRM H22 SLEEVE.

*EDIT alright guys im about to roll over and start crying, i really dont want to use the ebay ones even even tho they seem legit, i need to find the 10 overs genuine type s im asking for help finding them i will give a refferal fee to anyone who can lead me to somewhare that has them in stock 10 over.
if i spend 1 more minute searching online my girl is going to kill me.
-dave

Last edited by Kronicus; 02-19-2009 at 09:58 PM.
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Old 02-20-2009, 02:18 PM
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Re: quick mm bore question

im out of answers, hopefully someone will chime in soon. bump for you.
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Old 02-20-2009, 02:54 PM
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Re: quick mm bore question

finnally got ahold of prospeed about the 10 overs and they have to check warehouse stock but there pretty shure they DO have them.

on a side note i called exclusive honda shops from just about every corner of the earth asking if they HAVE built up h22's and gone further than 10 over.
all of them stated they have. so if it comes down to it i will use the ebays.

next question.......if i can get the 10 overs where do i get rings......
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Old 02-21-2009, 11:27 AM
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Re: quick mm bore question

well their listing says with rings so if you cant get them from their then you can get them from Majestic
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Old 02-21-2009, 11:54 AM
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Re: quick mm bore question

i called up 4 unrelated engine builders all out of state all clearly familiar with tuners.
two said they have gone 20 over on a stock h22
one said dont fu* with it just re-sleeve it and the last guy said they belive you could go 30 over as long as your not exceeding 310lbs compression per cilinder.

i ended up getting the ebay ones, after contacting a few people in his feedback that left feedback for those pistions. just about everyone is going 20 over.....
everyone said they work great.
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Old 02-21-2009, 03:04 PM
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Re: quick mm bore question

the honda service manual says the reboring limit is .25mm.
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Old 02-21-2009, 04:29 PM
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Re: quick mm bore question

as i found out as well, im perfectly safe tho
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