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idle issues, car wants to stall

 
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Old 04-03-2015, 07:00 AM
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idle issues, car wants to stall

Car: 1991 3rd gen prelude, auto transmission

So in the past few months I got engine code 14 twice at completely random occasions. (code 14 is for the EACV). When I turned the car off and turn the car back on the engine light would disappear. I also noticed that when I am idling and I rev the car, the RPM goes up and then dips down below the idle line and the car almost stalls, then goes back up again to the idle line.

So, to try and fix this, I went and bought a second hand EACV.
First I took the old EACV off and cleaned it up using throttle body cleaner to see if it just needed to be cleaned. I put it back on and the problem remained and felt even worse. I then decided alright ill put the second hand EACV on instead (the one I bought and didn't clean), so I did that and the problem also remained!

I also reset the ECU multiple times and checked for air in the coolant.

I have no idea what to do anymore, I was so sure it was the EACV. The fast idle seems to do its job when the car is cold but as the car warms up it seems to get worse and worse.

Any help?


P.S. Please don't get me started on how ridiculously difficult it is to remove and replace this part.

Last edited by m00; 04-03-2015 at 07:08 AM.
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Old 04-04-2015, 12:43 AM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

Think I remember it's two bolts and two water hoses. I had to bite the bullet and get a new idle control valve cause the used 20 year old ones were shot as well no matter how much I cleaned them. For some reason, I never got a code.
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Old 04-04-2015, 03:42 AM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

one of the bolts by the fuel rail is a real pain to remove/replace

anyone got any ideas what else it could be?

Last edited by m00; 04-04-2015 at 03:44 AM.
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Old 04-05-2015, 08:11 AM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

The throttle plate should b closed completely and the idle is set by the eacv bypassing air past the tp. I'd start by trying to push the tp closed. Ill bet the idle slows meaning the spring in the tb is getting too weak to fight the sludge. Clean it out good and c if it will settle down of course remembering to pull the clock fuse to reset idle learn. put ur finger over the bypass hole in front of the tp. If it's gonna b an issue with the eacv then the idle will return to 800 rpms. If it doesn't u more than likely have a vacuum leak. At our shop we would spray down the engine vacuum seals (hoses,tb gaskets) with carb cleaner (disclaimer: don't spray a hot engine and avoid the exhaust) and listen for the idle to change. A leak will cause a blog down or more than likely speed up rpms. Try this n get back to us. It's kinda Jenky but if plugging off ur air bypass worked with ur finger plug it with a rubber plug of cork.
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Old 04-05-2015, 08:16 AM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

Or cork*
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Old 04-05-2015, 08:47 AM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

^^ this!!

Also replace your pcv. Can't hurt and probably needs to be.

Go buy a vacuum tester and check segments for what's going on and when. My car did what you describe one day, then cleared up (no code). What was worse...it never occured again so I couldn't find out why it did it that time.

But I did loosen the throttle cable to spec afterwards.

My '97 does same at times. Upon decelaration there is too much vacuum at the idle point, so car bogs down until something in the internal air bypass allows the vacuum to break and idle returns to normal.
I suspect it's a build up of carbon in the intake system. But I got it going 'better' by using some carb spray in the throttle body.
And I suspect that's your issue to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m00 View Post
P.S. Please don't get me started on how ridiculously difficult it is to remove and replace this part.
For these cars you have to go beyond the normal ma n pa tool kit.
Stuff like 18" long needle nose pliers to get hose clamps or pull the tranny dipstick.
Swivel sockets like a u-joint/10mm, wobble extensions.
Flexible ratcheting screw drivers.
Dental mirror and flexible flashlight to see where the heck the part even is at times.

Tools you'll only use occasionaly, but worth their weight in gold.

Many times you can find the 'weird' tools on clearance at Sears, or in the $5 bin at Advance Auto, Pep Boys or at Northern tools on the ratchet row.


^^ my B21 auto car set.



^^ dentral mirror w/drinking straw extension and flexible light.
Walgreens! yep, got car tools at a drug store. Helped me find where a hose was leaking.

I'd go to get a quart of oil at a local parts store (because B21 rings) and the checkout dude would note the strange gizmo I was buying and remark "working on the 91 again?" lol.
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Old 04-07-2015, 09:55 PM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

I took it to a respected Honda mechanic in the area and the mechanics there said it's because of my custom air intake and possibly my K&N filter.. I've had this intake for ages and never had any problems and I never noticed the problem this bad.

apparently too much air coming into the engine and the stock intake prevents that from happening.

any insight into this?
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Old 04-08-2015, 01:44 PM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

I can see that being a possibility if your intake tube is leaking inside the engine bay, with the hood closed. Let me explain...

If your car is getting mostly cold air and then the tube opens up briefly so that hot engine bay air leaks in, it can cause fluctuations in idle due to the change in air density. The sensors will try to adjust the fuel mixture, but the leak is only momentary and the system can't compensate quick enough and you get surges.

So, to rule out what that "Respected Hondad Mechanic said", make sure your Intake tube is completely sealed from the front all the way to the throttle plate.
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Old 04-08-2015, 03:08 PM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

That could be, but he never said it was a cold air intake, only that it is custom. m00, are you running a cold air intake, or a short ram intake? Some people consider any kind of custom intake to be a cold air intake. But this is not true. Care to post a pic of it?
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Old 04-08-2015, 03:48 PM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

Quote:
Originally Posted by luzer View Post
...He never said it was a cold air intake, only that it is custom... ...Some people consider any kind of custom intake to be a cold air intake, But this is not true...
I agree on both counts. Although, You still can get fluctuation with a short ram, especially if some cooler air seeps in under the hood or from under the car and into the air intake stream.

I wanted to ask, How about that "S" tube that comes off the back passenger side of the Valve Cover? Doesn't the Crankcase vacuum pull in air through it from the stock intake tubing just before the throttle plate? If so, Is that vacuum regulated? If these are the case, then should we ask if he has that hose installed, or that port blocked off?

I had read that a member was having Stall issues and found out that it was caused by the valve cover rubber grommets being brittle or one was missing. (I will have to go back and research which it was) but basically, he had a "vacuum leak" from his valve cover. Not sure how true or accurate that claim is, but seems like we are trying to find the "Not So Obvious/Not So Common" cause to this issue so I may be reaching or speculating a little.
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Old 04-08-2015, 04:34 PM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

There is no vacuum inside the valve cover. If anything, there is positive pressure in there.

That tube is simply a vent. It is routed to the intake (before the throttle body) in order to burn off any residual oil and vapors that can come out of there. You don't have to route that the the intake, as the engine will run fine if you just remove the rubber tube. I've seen some people install a very small air filter onto there. You would want to plug the hole in the intake if you have done this, as it would pull in unfiltered hot air into the intake air stream. But you don't want to plug that tube in the valve cover.

I ran for a few years with a cracked PCV valve grommet. It didn't cause any issues for me.
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Old 04-08-2015, 05:17 PM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

Quote:
Originally Posted by luzer View Post
There is no vacuum inside the valve cover. If anything, there is positive pressure in there.

That tube is simply a vent. It is routed to the intake (before the throttle body) in order to burn off any residual oil and vapors that can come out of there. You don't have to route that the the intake, as the engine will run fine if you just remove the rubber tube. I've seen some people install a very small air filter onto there. You would want to plug the hole in the intake if you have done this, as it would pull in unfiltered hot air into the intake air stream. But you don't want to plug that tube in the valve cover.

I ran for a few years with a cracked PCV valve grommet. It didn't cause any issues for me.
Kool! Good to know. Thanks for clearing that up!
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Old 04-08-2015, 05:30 PM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonemeister69 View Post

I had read that a member was having Stall issues and found out that it was caused by the valve cover rubber grommets being brittle or one was missing. (I will have to go back and research which it was) but basically, he had a "vacuum leak" from his valve cover.
The guy said when he replaced the grommet his idle bounce went away. I had been following that thread for a few days as the guy had tried all the usual fixes to no avail. So we were discussing vacuum and where to look for leaks. But I would've never thought of the valver cover nut cushion missing would cause idle bounce.
But one day dude said wtf, replaced it and says his idle bounce and stalling is gone.
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I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead
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Old 04-08-2015, 05:52 PM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

Quote:
Originally Posted by bykfixer View Post
The guy said when he replaced the grommet his idle bounce went away. I had been following that thread for a few days as the guy had tried all the usual fixes to no avail. So we were discussing vacuum and where to look for leaks. But I would've never thought of the valver cover nut cushion missing would cause idle bounce.
But one day dude said wtf, replaced it and says his idle bounce and stalling is gone.
YEP! That was the thread that I was referring to... So question is... Was that justa coincidence that the isue went away when the valve cover nut cushion was replaced? Was something else moved and he just didn't realize it? Or was the "Lack of Seal" the actual culprit?

I mean, you have a LITTLE vacuum under the valve cover due to the intake vacuum signal thru the PCV but as Luzer pointed out, that is probably cancelled out by trhe breather pipe I referred to. Although, There would probably be a little vacuum in that tube as well from the intake when the throttle plate is opened up, but not when the car is at idle. The PCV and the breather tube should be close to that same vacuum "potential" when the throttle plate is WOT. (Wide Open Throttle)

I may just have to verify all of this this weekend. I will use some incense for smoke to see if the tube has a vacuum signal on it. Just wish I had a vacuum gauge... Guess I know what is next on my Tool Wish List!
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Old 04-08-2015, 08:01 PM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

Pull off your pcv hose with the car at idle. Your idle will speed will likely increase dramatically due to a giant vacuum leak. So it's easy to think a cracked/missing anchor nut grommet could cause the system to be confused and have an idle hunt (or idle bounce). But to be honest it aint a place I wouldv'e looked.

Vacuum tester is #1 on my list next time I'm near a Harbor Freight. It'll show you a lot about the health of your engine if you know how to read the actions of the needle.

Check Your Engine’s Health: With a Vacuum Gauge | Tuner University


I cannot find that thread DAG-NABBIT.

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welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
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Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead

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Old 04-09-2015, 05:37 AM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

Quote:
Originally Posted by luzer View Post
That could be, but he never said it was a cold air intake, only that it is custom. m00, are you running a cold air intake, or a short ram intake? Some people consider any kind of custom intake to be a cold air intake. But this is not true. Care to post a pic of it?
cold air intake made up of a bunch of PVC pipes, I'll post a pic when I can

edit:

here is my engine bay. it may be correct that air is leaking out as the intake is made up of PVC pipes, I'll have to experiment a little

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Old 04-09-2015, 05:41 AM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

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Originally Posted by bykfixer View Post
Pull off your pcv hose with the car at idle. Your idle will speed will likely increase dramatically due to a giant vacuum leak. So it's easy to think a cracked/missing anchor nut grommet could cause the system to be confused and have an idle hunt (or idle bounce). But to be honest it aint a place I wouldv'e looked.

Vacuum tester is #1 on my list next time I'm near a Harbor Freight. It'll show you a lot about the health of your engine if you know how to read the actions of the needle.

Check Your Engine’s Health: With a Vacuum Gauge | Tuner University


I cannot find that thread DAG-NABBIT.

taking my PCV valve out doesn't affect the idle at all
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Old 04-09-2015, 10:24 AM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

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Originally Posted by m00 View Post
taking my PCV valve out doesn't affect the idle at all
Does it rattle when you shake it? If not, it needs to be cleaned. You can use WD-40.
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Old 04-09-2015, 10:27 AM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

Hey, wait a minute... Your brake booster is on the right hand side... Is this a right hand drive car?
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Old 04-09-2015, 01:24 PM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

Quote:
Originally Posted by m00 View Post
cold air intake made up of a bunch of PVC pipes, I'll post a pic when I can

edit:

here is my engine bay. it may be correct that air is leaking out as the intake is made up of PVC pipes, I'll have to experiment a little

That intake shouldn't have any effect on your idle. It's basically the same thing that the stock intake is, assuming the filter is in the stock location. If you look at a stock intake, you'll see that there are small holes in it to allow moisture to drain out. It won't matter if the pvc section of your intake has any leaks in it, as the filter is after that section of the intake. The intake is stock from the filter to the throttle body. And many people run just that portion of the intake tube and just stick a filter on the end. The intake isn't causing your problem. I'm surprised your Honda tech suggested this is causing your problem.

As far as the PCV valve discussion goes, the purpose of that valve is to recirculate blowby gasses back into the induction system to be burned off. It was the first attempt at emissions control, and dates back to the early 60's. There is not normally vacuum in the valve cover, as it is vented straight through to the crankcase. The PCV valve has a small spring inside, and when the pressure difference between the crankcase and the intake manifold is high enough, usually only under idle when manifold vacuum is highest, the valve opens and allows the gasses into the intake manifold. If the PCV valve is stuck open, it's possible the idle could be erratic, and another results may be increased oil consumption. If it's stuck closed, then the excess gasses will go out the valve cover vent and into the intake. The will often rattle when shaken, but not always. One way to check it would be to blow into the valve from both ends. You should only be able to blow air into the end that goes into the valve cover. Air flow should be blocked in the other direction. But given the cheap price of them, and ease of replacement, it's probably a good idea to replace it regardless.
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Old 04-09-2015, 07:28 PM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

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Originally Posted by tonemeister69 View Post
Hey, wait a minute... Your brake booster is on the right hand side... Is this a right hand drive car?
Yep! I am from Australia
Jdm brah
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Old 04-09-2015, 08:17 PM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

Sometimes the 3g auto acts like it wants to stall because the tranny isn't down shifting proper.
Say you go to take off and the tranny is stuck in 2nd or 3rd...can't explain why because I don't speak propellerhead, but know it happened to me once right after I removed all the slack from my throttle cable and caused malfunctioning in gizmos that began working when I put back the slack.

Check out the 3g manual. It says (paraphrasing for all you pixel counters) "if the throttle cable is out of adjustment it can cause lock up features of the transmission to malfunction" or something along those lines....
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welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
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Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
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I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

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Old 04-10-2015, 03:35 AM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

Okay guys the problem seems to have fixed it self. How long does the ecu take to learn ****? Because it seems to have taken a week of daily driving after resetting ecu for the problem to go away

So confused
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Old 04-10-2015, 06:45 AM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

That's a great question.

I've read about smog tests where when it fails person a fixes part x resets ecu and drives z number of miles, returns to shop and smog test passes. But if they reset it, then do test right after the car fails.
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welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
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Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead

Last edited by bykfixer; 04-10-2015 at 06:48 AM.
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Old 04-10-2015, 10:11 AM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

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Yep! I am from Australia
Jdm brah
Well then G'day Mate!

Beautiful country! I got to see Perth up close. The rest just in pictures.
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Old 05-05-2015, 03:32 AM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

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As far as the PCV valve discussion goes, the purpose of that valve is to recirculate blowby gasses back into the induction system to be burned off. It was the first attempt at emissions control, and dates back to the early 60's. There is not normally vacuum in the valve cover, as it is vented straight through to the crankcase. The PCV valve has a small spring insid, and when the pressure difference between the crankcase and the intake manifold is higth enough, usually only under idle when manifold vacuum is highest... .
My 92 si is having the same issues, once it warms and I drive for a while it will bog down & die. I have been exploring everything I can think of, reading forums on the issue, general information about all the parts involved, and a friend of mine said he had the same issue in his Volvo. Turned out to be that pcv valve. I told him yeah I took it off and the plastic grommet was fine, it was a little gunky and I cleaned it out so that the little one-way thing inside moves freely. He said "yeah... I thought the same thing, and when I was telling that to my dad he said 'you mean the rubber grommet? And the valve that's spring loaded?' So then ten dollars later he got to say I told ya so!"

So I will be getting a new one tomorrow. After doing some deep research on the function of the pcv valve, the things that are happening with my car make perfect sense. I will post back with an update once I get it put in.

Also a random question, the little hose going from my egr valve along/over the fuel rail was plugged, purposely, at a connection in the hose. I started having this,problem after I cleared it and reconnected it. The car stalled while I was driving, so I plugged it again and it drove fine for a while. Just curious why would someone block that off? And where does it go to? Assuming that's why my car throws code 12 for egr lift valve sensor...
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Old 05-06-2015, 11:07 AM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

Japanese 3rd gen ludes don't have egr valves but do Aussie cars have them?USA models definetely had them.
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Old 05-06-2015, 02:52 PM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall(SOLVED!)

Hey guys!!! I solved my idle/stall issue, it seems to have actually been that pcv valve!! Swapped out the valve, grommet, and hoses and it's running like a champ again!! Cost about 15 bucks all together(not counting the other few things I replaced first... Dist cap/rotor/plugs/wires)
Many people swear that the pcv valve wouldn't cause a stall... But it worked for me, and my friend, so I highly suggest trying it out. Especially since it's so cheap and easy. I'm blown away that it was something so simple.
I hope this helps someone out, this problem is NOT a fun one. It's scary when it happens, and frustrating to go through the countless options.
SO HAPPY!!!
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Old 05-06-2015, 04:52 PM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall

It's great to hear that fixed your problem. Gotta love cheap fixes.
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Old 05-06-2015, 05:15 PM
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Re: idle issues, car wants to stall





PCV huh?

Glad it's fixed.
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Originally Posted by ogsmakdade View Post
welcome to site Carl
...is a golden car fax kinda like a golden ticket? Sure hope willy wonka didn't put any snozberries in your motor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elspectro29 View Post
Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindso View Post
I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

God's Not Dead
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