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Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

 
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Old 06-24-2014, 01:15 PM
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Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

Well, I figured out why my Preludes wasn't idling. I had a valve that was stuck open and the piston smashed it and broke the head of the valve off, causing it to float around in the cylinder and put an indention in my piston and also in my head. I have already ordered a remanufactured head and the head gasket kit, but I am looking for a piston and rings to replace the damaged one. I found a piston from the dealer for around $40 but can't find rings to go with it. I wouldn't mind using a used piston but would still want to put new rings on it since they never seat the same in an "estranged" cylinder.

I have a "B20A5" engine.

Anyone have any suggestions?

BTW... You can see the damage in my "Cylinder Head" photo album. http://www.preludezone.com/members/3...lbums1978.html

Since I have the head out of the car, I also removed the Intake manifold and vacuum control box (Calling it that for lack of proper/better name for it) so that I can replace ALL the vacuum lines inside and leading to/away from said box.

I will also be replacing all the other hoses I can get to. Fuel return, heater, cooling, vacuum, Etc. Just FYI...

AND... One more question. There is a series of air inlet ducting around the car... Aside from "resonance control", is there any REAL reason that it's all needed? There is a large plastic box on top of the rack & pinion that has nothing attached to it but a tube that attaches to the air filter box... I'd really like to remove it and just block off the inlet going into the air filter box.

Thank you all for your help.
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Last edited by tonemeister69; 06-24-2014 at 01:18 PM. Reason: Added Engine Model & photo album link
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Old 06-24-2014, 06:31 PM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

Ouch, that looks like it hurt. Usually the valves just bend and put slight indentations on the pistons. The pistons can usually be reused after smoothing out the slight depression, but in your case I'd replace it, as you plan to do.

I'm pretty sure I have a b20a5 piston for you. It still has the rings and connecting rod attached. I'll send it to you for $12 shipped if you're interested in it. No damage, just some carbon build up. I'll look through my parts bins when I get home from work and post back if I find it.

As far as the intake goes, you're right about the ducting and boxes. They are for resonance and quieting the intake noise. It won't hurt anything if you remove them and plug the openings to the air box. Mine have been gone for years.
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Old 06-24-2014, 07:06 PM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

A little unrelated(sorry). You can buy a new piston at rockauto.com for 24.79 and it includes the rings.

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=475032

Just click continue shopping on the right side.
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Old 06-24-2014, 09:24 PM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

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Originally Posted by LUDEicrous View Post
A little unrelated(sorry). You can buy a new piston at rockauto.com for 24.79 and it includes the rings.
It's helpful if you include a link, but not required I guess.

OP, It's fine with me if you want to just buy a new piston. I'm basically willing to ship this to you for the cost of shipping and packaging materials. Not looking to make anything on this, and I don't mind hanging onto it one in case I ever need one.
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Old 06-25-2014, 12:09 AM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

Hey Luzer, I really appreciate your offer, but I went ahead and ordered the new piston from Rockauto (Nothing personal but $30 shipping included for a new piston is a good deal)

And Thanks LUDEicrous for the info... not unrelated at all... It was exactly what I was looking for. I appreciate the link...

But we'll see if it comes in cause the last 2 places I tried to order it through called me to say that they could't get it after all. So if it happens to fall through again, Luzer, i'll gladly take you up on your offer!

And i'll definitely be removing those resonance boxes! Eventually going to install an aftermarket air intake/ducting. I really don't want to relocate the battery to the trunk so going to look for some other way to get some cool air to the engine.
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Old 06-25-2014, 07:36 AM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

Yes you'll probably need a replacement head. Junkyards are cheap. Since I saw your pic, I noticed the cylinder wall looks pretty good. I'm cheap so I'd replace the head and keep the banged up piston like I did with my Nissan. Ran perfect. I took all my resonance tubes off cause I don't really care about a few decibels.
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Old 06-25-2014, 11:50 AM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

Yeah, I found a "junkyard" head for $150 but once I priced out the cost of all the parts and labor, I would have spent more than the $380 I paid for a remanufactured head, which has been magna-fluxed and pressure tested, all new valve guides, springs, 3 angle valve job, and then a final pressure test to check the Valve seating. They do the whole works. I just got it in the mail yesterday and didn't have time to open the box, but I'll let you know how it looks. :D

I would have kept that piston too if there were just "surface dings" on it, but that one indention I outlined in the picture is a little too close for comfort... I damn sure don't want to chance it giving way and having to do all this over again...

On the decibels, I have driven V8's with dual aftermarket exhaust all my life, aside from the couple of 4 bangers I owned for daily commute, so I LIKE loud... And NOT to offend anyone, but I just don't want it to sound all "tuner-ish". I already like how my stock Prelude sounds so if taking off the resonators will amplify that, then I'm game!
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Old 06-25-2014, 12:01 PM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

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Originally Posted by tonemeister69 View Post
Hey Luzer, I really appreciate your offer, but I went ahead and ordered the new piston from Rockauto (Nothing personal but $30 shipping included for a new piston is a good deal)

But we'll see if it comes in cause the last 2 places I tried to order it through called me to say that they could't get it after all. So if it happens to fall through again, Luzer, i'll gladly take you up on your offer!
No worries, I can understand that. The offer is still there if you need it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonemeister69 View Post
On the decibels, I have driven V8's with dual aftermarket exhaust all my life, aside from the couple of 4 bangers I owned for daily commute, so I LIKE loud... And NOT to offend anyone, but I just don't want it to sound all "tuner-ish". I already like how my stock Prelude sounds so if taking off the resonators will amplify that, then I'm game!
Just to clarify, the resonators are for the intake, not exhaust. You will hear more intake sounds without them (although not a lot). The sound of the exhaust won't change by removing the intake resonators. If you go with a CAI or short ram intake there will be a very noticeable difference in the intake sounds. To change the exhaust sound you will have to change the exhaust components.
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Old 06-25-2014, 12:17 PM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

Yeah, Sorry about that... I kinda muddled my thoughts about the "resonance" of a car all together... I know we all agree that opening up the intake definitely lets you hear more engine sound. I had a 1999 Hyundai Elantra and I removed the stock air filter box and put an inexpensive elbow and a K&N on it and it sounded MEAN! Everyone was like, "Dude, what kind of engine did you put in there??"

Anyways, the "Rat Maze" will be going away... Just a waste of space and extra weight... Was probably put there as Japanese sound pollution remedy.
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Old 06-25-2014, 02:35 PM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

Haha, muddled thoughts seem to be more common for me lately. Must be an age thing.

Unless you want to keep the car totally stock, there's no reason to keep all of that plastic in the engine bay. I really like how my intake sounds with the short ram I have. I realize that it's not adding any performance, but the sound is worth it for me. Combine that with the exhaust I have and I'm all smiles. Driving my lude is all about the enjoyment since it's not my daily driver.
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Old 06-27-2014, 12:28 PM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

Well, I got my Fel-Pro head gasket set and replacement piston in yesterday. So this weekend I am going to remove the oil pan so I can push out that bad piston and going to clean the oil pan and as much of the inside of the engine as I can.

I haven't had the chance to rebuild the intake, but I'll be doing that along with replacing the water pump and all the water and vacuum hoses. I'll post those pics in the Broken Valve album to share with whoever wants to see.

Wish me luck as it has been raining off and on all week and I have no room in the garage to work. :/ I have SERIOUSLY thought about getting a pop-up canopy to work under, to shield me from the sun and/or rain. At least if it rains, I can still rebuild the intake and take the piston to get the connecting rod swapped over.
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Old 06-27-2014, 02:47 PM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

Sounds like you're all set. Hopefully the weather will cooperate. Best of luck Tony! Don't hesitate to post up or send a PM if you run into any issues.
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Old 06-27-2014, 05:47 PM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

Should the cylinder wall be re-honed Luzer?
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Old 06-27-2014, 06:29 PM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

Well that's a good question. I would ask how many miles are on the engine? The right way to do this would be to pull all the pistons, re-ring, and then hone all four cylinders. But it might not really be necessary. A few years ago, my son's 89 S model burned a piston because of a carb problem. We went to a junkyard and pulled a piston from another b20a3 that had similar mileage as his. We replaced the piston and didn't replace the rings. We did use the rod bearings from the burned piston. It's been running for 4 years now. I recently did a compression test and all four cylinders are within 5 psi.

So long story short, It's recommended that he do those things but he might be just fine not doing them. I'll leave it up to him to decide what he wants to do.
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Old 06-27-2014, 06:57 PM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

^^ pressing like button.

Good info. 4 years? Cool!!
Your kid has a prelude? Priceless
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Only seen the first one, 15 years ago in theaters. Plan on keeping it that way. Get off my lawn.
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I remember my first thread, asking what a noise was when I got going 110mph.
Pretty much got flamed for driving like a jackass and was told to slow down. And I'll be damned, slowing down fixed it.

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Old 06-27-2014, 07:46 PM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

I tried pulling pistons out in my youth and found that if there's too much ring ridge, You won't get them out without tearing up all the rings. Feel for ring ridge first before ordering any rings.
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Old 06-28-2014, 11:58 AM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

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I tried pulling pistons out in my youth and found that if there's too much ring ridge, You won't get them out without tearing up all the rings. Feel for ring ridge first before ordering any rings.
That's a good point. You would want to use a ridge reamer before trying to push the pistons out if there is a ridge. From what I've seen it's not common to see ridges on the cylinders on our engines. The engine in my current lude had well over 200k miles when I got it, and there was no ridge in any of the cylinders. In fact, I could still see a little bit of cross hatching from when it was honed. The person who sold me the car said the engine had never been rebuilt. I have yet to see a 3rd gen engine that does have a ridge formed, but it could happen so it's good to know about it.

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^^ pressing like button.

Good info. 4 years? Cool!!
Your kid has a prelude? Priceless
Yup, he has an 89 S that a member on the other forum gave me. In fact, my daughter also had a Prelude before she bought her x-terra. Every day was like our own mini Prelude meet.
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Old 06-30-2014, 06:19 PM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

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Should the cylinder wall be re-honed Luzer?
It rained pretty much all day on Saturday so I spent most of the time opening and closing the hood and picking up parts & tools.

I have just over 70K miles on the engine. There isn't ANY lip on any of the cylinder walls... All 4 are smooth as a baby's bottom! The bad piston came right out and the rings look fine. I WAS going to ONLY replace the rings on the bad piston but NOW you excited my OCD and I may have to re-ring ALL the pistons... Hmmm...

I pretty much have all the coolant hoses replaced, a couple I got from AZ didn't match up in diameter so I'm going to see if I can hand select some that will fit correctly. I will make a list of what I find and add the part numbers. Going to try to get the Gates numbers as well.

The worst part about this whole things is I absolutely KNOW what caused the valve to seize up. There was a layer of sludge on the bottom of the oil pan about an inch deep, and filled in the oil chamber / girdle thing. (I'll go back and correctly name this part once I identify it.) I am surprised the whole engine didn't lock up. Needless to say, I cleaned the oil pan and "thingy" spotless with brake cleaner. I will post pictures of the sludge this evening, time permitting.

I will add more to this post as well.
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Old 07-14-2014, 01:04 PM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

Ok, I pretty much have it all back together. New piston and rings, but I didn't change the rings on the other 3 pistons after all. I DID forget to put one of the timing belt dust covers on and couldn't get it on with the belt and cam gears installed so I made a decision to cut it in half and install it like that. I am going to make a post about it when I get a chance. I took pictures and all.

I had a hard time getting the alignment of the timing belt set correctly. It was always 1 tooth off... either forward or back... After several hours messing with it, I FINALLY got the alignment just right. so THAT'S why i'm not taking the belt back off!

One other "issue" I ran into was once I had the head on, I noticed that the casting/part number was different... I have a B20A5 engine with a PK2/E5 Head and they sent me a PK3Y/E1 head... I called the vendor today and they confirmed that they are interchangeable. I looked on here and other Honda/Prelude forums but didn't get any definite answer as there wasn't any threads discussing the PK3Y/E1 head.

I also have all the parts for my "Self-Made" custom Power Steering Pressure hose and I have the lower section complete and will finish the Pump end once I have the valve cover and everything else in place. I will make a post on this and add pictures and MFG part numbers when I get done.

I just need to find the page in the manual on how to adjust the rocker arms. I have a pretty good idea on how to do it, but I absolutely need to confirm.


So with all this said, HOPEFULLY I will have her up and running by Saturday!
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Old 07-14-2014, 08:15 PM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

Glad to hear you're making progress. Now, about that head...it's a b21a1 head. PK2=b20a(5) and bk3=b21a(1). It will work fine for you but there are a couple issues you should be aware of. First, your compression is going to be slightly lower with the combination of b21a1 head on a b20a5 block. This would be good if you plan to turbo your engine later. The other issue you will have is that the intake ports are not perfectly matched. You can see this if you place the b20a5 intake gasket onto the head. You will see that the gasket doesn't line up exactly with the intake ports as it should. Again, not a huge issue but it may affect performance slightly. If you're planning to use it for a daily driver than it's fine. If you're planning to track the car at all then you'll want to remedy this now, by either port matching the head and intake manifold, or swapping to a b20a(5) head.

Here's a link for how to adjust valve lash (rockers)...
Valve Adjustment
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Old 07-15-2014, 09:33 AM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

Doing the rockers are easy but do them COLD Like early in the morning. Yes PK2 IS FOR b20a aND pk3 IS FOR b21 . The ecm computers have the same stamp. Yours is PK2 CAUSE YOU GOT A B20A. tHEY AREN'T INTERCHANGEABLE AT ALL.
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Old 07-15-2014, 10:39 AM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

Ok, I now have 2 conflicting statement... One that they are interchangeable and one that they aren't interchangeable... I did a visual comparison before I put the new one on and they appear to be the same... I did NOT put the intake gasket on until I had the head on the block so I didn't confirm that it was perfectly aligned...

This TOTALLY F**KING SUCKS...
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Old 07-15-2014, 10:59 AM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

I just got off the phone with the Cylinder Head Remanufacturer and they told me that the PK2/E5 and the PK3Y/E1 are 100% interchangeable. I got the guys name and the name of his shop supervisor and asked if they GUARANTEE that there will not be any issues. He said that they interchange those 2 all the time.

I also looked on several websites and yeah, the PK2 is for a B20 and the PK3(Y) is for a B21... Just as everyone has said...

So I don't doubt any of you guys... I know you know your stuff... I just want my car to run right and not have ANY issues with it. It'd suck to lose ANY power due to a larger compression chamber, I almost wish I had just taken MY HEAD to an engine shop to have it rebuilt...
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Old 07-15-2014, 11:17 AM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

Yes the heads are interchangeable but not the ecm computers. You can still go to a junkyard to find a good pk2 head for higher compression. Sorry for making you worry.
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Old 07-15-2014, 11:59 AM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

I am half tempted to keep my PK2 head, pay the $125 core, and have it rebuilt and swap it out if i'm not happy with the performance of the PK3Y...
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Old 07-15-2014, 12:04 PM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lespaul59 View Post
Sorry for making you worry.
No Worries... I am just ready to drive it... AND ready to stop working on it...
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Old 07-15-2014, 05:47 PM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonemeister69 View Post
I am half tempted to keep my PK2 head, pay the $125 core, and have it rebuilt and swap it out if i'm not happy with the performance of the PK3Y...
If I remember correctly, the Y on PK3Y means your head came from a JDM b21a engine and not a USDM b21a1. At least that's how it is with the b20a. The head on my original b20a5 was marked PK2, and the head on the JDM b20a that's in there now is marked PK2Y.
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Old 07-16-2014, 09:58 AM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

Quote:
Originally Posted by luzer View Post
If I remember correctly, the Y on PK3Y means your head came from a JDM b21a engine and not a USDM b21a1. At least that's how it is with the b20a. The head on my original b20a5 was marked PK2, and the head on the JDM b20a that's in there now is marked PK2Y.
What do the E1, E3, E5, Etc. mean?
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Old 07-16-2014, 10:31 AM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

This is what I found on Honda Prelude Forum - PreludeDriver.com • View topic - 3rd Generation Honda Prelude Engine Stats

B20A5:
Engine cc: 1958.14
Cylinder cc: 489.535
Deck cc: 13.885
Head cc: 47.3
Cylinder cc + Head Gasket cc + Head cc: 550.7200
Deck cc + Head cc: 61.185
Compression Ratio: 9.0:1

B21A1:
Engine cc: 2056.03
Cylinder cc: 514.0075
Deck cc: 10.191
Head cc: 51.0
Cylinder cc + Head Gasket cc + Head cc: 575.1985
Deck cc + Head cc: 61.191
Compression Ratio: 9.4:1

B20A5 block with B21A1 Head:
Engine cc: 1958.14
Cylinder cc: 489.535
Deck cc: 13.885
Head cc: 51.0
Cylinder cc + Head Gasket cc + Head cc: 554.4200
Deck cc + Head cc: 64.885
Compression Ratio: 8.545:1


So pretty much I will be losing one half of a "point" with this new head... Which roughly equates to 7HP... NOT KOOL...
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"Tackling Those Gremlins One By One"

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Last edited by tonemeister69; 07-16-2014 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 07-16-2014, 11:52 AM
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Re: Advice on Smashed Valve & Dented Piston...

Honestly, most people would probably not notice losing 7 hp if they didn't know it was gone. They'd probably notice having a passenger in the car with them more than losing 7 hp. But, having said that, our cars are already underpowered enough in comparison with modern cars. And we spend good money on gaining every little bit we can. What are your plans for the car? Like I mentioned before, if you ever plan to boost this engine, lowering compression a little is not a bad idea.

Now, if you're going to mix and match heads and blocks, the ideal combination would be to bore the block out to that of the b21 and use a b20 head. This will give you a nice bump in compression ratio for NA applications.
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