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Frankenstein B20

 
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Old 07-03-2012, 07:50 PM
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Frankenstein B20

Alright, I'm planning on building a monster out of a stock B20 becase I have herd that you can use stock rods;pistons;cranks exc from other motors to make much more power.

After a little research I have found that any b series piston (excluding b21 and b20b) will fit in our blocks, that all have 81mm bore. Also that the H23 has the same stroke but I have no idea on the compatablity with our motors.

I have seen on here where people have talked about builds like this but cant find the pages, anybody have any tips?
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Old 07-03-2012, 09:18 PM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

Yes, I have some info on that. and fyi, B20a5 pistons are 81mm STD. Luckily, I have some experience with modifying the engine internals, and centered my 88 Si B20a5 NA monster around both cost and effectiveness. During the build, I had the intention of steering away from the expensive parts that look sexy, and wanted to use available stock parts from other engines.

- Using the B18 or B16 pistons is possible, but the B20a5 connecting rods do not 'bolt-on' to the B16/B18 pistons. You can still accomplish this by either boring out the piston pin hole on the pistons, or by adding a sleeve-type mod to the connecting rod. Stock B16/B18 pistons have a more economic skirt style, and therefore are a step down in reliability, but are capable of producing higher compression.

- B16/B18 connecting rods are pretty much out of the question. The length of the rod is far off and pretty much the cost/time to make it work is more than the cost to build the entire engine NA to do 0-60 in 6 seconds.

- Stock B21a1 pistons are 83mm, and you can have the B20a5 block bored out to fit these pistons. Basically, it would be bored out 80-over, or additional 2mm, which makes it a 2.1 liter engine. I'd recommend moly piston rings if you can afford it, but the stock rings work just fine.

- The stock B20a5 crank will hold up to about 400hp unless you do something wrong. Example: incorrect main cap torque specs, or drop it off a building. There is no other crank which can produce more power and still fit in the engine block. You can make a B18 crank fit, but it changes the geometry, lowers the stroke length, requires tons of modification, lots of fitment issues, entirely different rod/stroke geometry, requires different length connecting rods, etc etc.

- Stock H23/F22 connecting rods are a direct bolt-in replacement of the B20a5 rods. The H23 rods are much much stronger, and are good for even 300+hp turbo. They are the best $150 investment in an engine rebuild. However, aftermarket H23 rods require notching of the engine block, and provide no real benefits for the price over stock replacement H23 rods. DO NOT CONFUSE THE H23/F22 CONNECTING RODS WITH H22 CONNECTING RODS!!!

- The factory oil pump will do just fine.

How do I know all this info? I will post back here and show some pictures of my B20a5 engine build. Currently, I have a B20a3 monster build on hold since I bought a house. But it will have a very similar internal build. Actually, I already have the part :D
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Old 07-03-2012, 09:46 PM
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Icon10 Re: Frankenstein B20

My B20a5 obscene NA build is currently a daily-driven race car. It has never lost an impromptu race since it's rebuild like 2+ years ago. It has been up against cars like the Crossfire, 6.2 liter Silverado, Mazda 6 turbo, and other cars that do 0-60mph between 6-7 seconds. Yes, it beat them, and often by a lot.

The bottom end consists of:
- B20a5 crank.
- B21a1 stock STD pistons.
- Milled block surface down to increase compression.
- H23 stock connecting rods.
- ACL brand B20a5 main and rod bearings.
- Stock oil pump.

That is just the bottom end. Including the head surface milling, I'd estimate compression ratio to be pretty high. High enough to require the use of premium gas from either Shell or BP.

Now for the pron pics:

B20a5 block:


Bored to 83mm:


B20a5 crank, polished and reconditioned:


B21a1 pistons (83mm):


H23 connecting rod next to damaged B20a5 connecting rod:


I also hand polished the pistons and balanced them:


Installed:


ESP Traction bar and torque mount:


The head and block surfaces were milled down far enough to make the intake manifold touch the water pipe, which is a lot:


Just for the record, intake manifold runners P&P'd:



Looks like I kinda jacked your thread, but I hope my credentials check out. I don't have a lot of posts here, but I have over 8,000 posts on another 3rd gen Prelude forum. What I mean by that is, I have followed a lot of other 3rd gen Prelude owners through their engine build threads. Also, well, I know a lot about these cars.

Last edited by TripleLude; 07-03-2012 at 09:54 PM. Reason: my typing is sh*t
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Old 07-04-2012, 03:06 AM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

Man this is exactly what i asked for, what im tryin to do is build a bottom end for a high comp na build.

Dont really have alot of hondas to pick out of in the junk yards in town besides the regular f22s and there is one f23. The junkyards out of town hough have a few bace model integras and 4g prelude si's, do you recomend me taking anything off of these cars?
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Old 07-04-2012, 03:14 AM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

makes me want to sell my 5th gen and get a third gen

LOL
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Old 07-04-2012, 03:38 AM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

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Originally Posted by SoFlaKidd View Post
makes me want to sell my 5th gen and get a third gen

LOL

Hurry up, do it!
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Old 07-04-2012, 10:12 AM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

Quote:
Originally Posted by TripleLude View Post
My B20a5 obscene NA build is currently a daily-driven race car. It has never lost an impromptu race since it's rebuild like 2+ years ago. It has been up against cars like the Crossfire, 6.2 liter Silverado, Mazda 6 turbo, and other cars that do 0-60mph between 6-7 seconds. Yes, it beat them, and often by a lot.
Aiming high are we?

All that work on an NA build to beat Silverado's, what kind of whp are you trying to achieve? Honestly, when all said and done, you're going to want more and more. The only way to go for a NA build IMO is a built H series, esp. if you want to be making 220whp+ (unless someone has done it with a B20, prove me wrong please).

I can tell you with my Civic, which is lighter, even after 280whp (Mazda 6? How about 911 Turbos), I believe I'd like a bit more. Building a "monster" anything in and of itself can be fun, but what is the end goal in mind?
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Old 07-04-2012, 10:53 AM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

The goal in my build was to be faster than 90% of assembly line cars. Originally, I was going to turbo this thing, but after the initial build was together, I changed my mind. In NA form, I have a daily reliable race car, and I don't have to wait and idle to cool a turbo.

It is so fast that any more than 30% throttle is downright scary.

*edit*
Kenpachi, either you are trolling, or you are still mad about that wheel thread. It's ok, I'm not here to steal your fire. It appears I had not established credentials until now. So I'm being up front and I hope you can be my brother in all this. Not some H22 or civic punk stuck in a 3rd gen Prelude forum.
/thanks


Last edited by TripleLude; 07-04-2012 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 07-04-2012, 12:50 PM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

I didnt ask to be convinced to change my mind on my build, i asked for info because this is what i want to do.
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Old 07-04-2012, 01:13 PM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

Lol at kenpachi. "911 turbos" suuuuuuuuure bud.

Im sure kenpachi is just a troll. I would ignore him

Edit: And @triplelude, nice build bro. Like soflakid said, makes me want a 3rd gen
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Old 07-04-2012, 01:53 PM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

Quote:
Originally Posted by TripleLude View Post
The goal in my build was to be faster than 90% of assembly line cars. Originally, I was going to turbo this thing, but after the initial build was together, I changed my mind. In NA form, I have a daily reliable race car, and I don't have to wait and idle to cool a turbo.

It is so fast that any more than 30% throttle is downright scary.

*edit*
Kenpachi, either you are trolling, or you are still mad about that wheel thread. It's ok, I'm not here to steal your fire. It appears I had not established credentials until now. So I'm being up front and I hope you can be my brother in all this. Not some H22 or civic punk stuck in a 3rd gen Prelude forum.
So, you did not answer my question, in all honesty, what whp are you trying to make, or power to weight ratio you consider better than 90% of cars out there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colinater View Post
I didnt ask to be convinced to change my mind on my build, i asked for info because this is what i want to do.
There is the answer! Good luck on the build then, I look forward to seeing your progress! ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbb6 View Post
Lol at kenpachi. "911 turbos" suuuuuuuuure bud.

Im sure kenpachi is just a troll. I would ignore him

Edit: And @triplelude, nice build bro. Like soflakid said, makes me want a 3rd gen
Yes, 911 Turbos, let's do the math:

Porsche 997 Turbo weighs 3200lbs, come with 400 at the fly so: 3200/400= 8 power/weight ratio, or 8 lbs per horsepower

My 92 Civic currently weighs 2200lbs, approx 320 hp at the flywheel so: 2200/320= 6.875 lbs per horsepower

Troll or not, I'm just laying it down as I see it. Spend some time at the dyno and at the track.

Enjoy!
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Last edited by Kenpachi; 07-04-2012 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 07-04-2012, 02:52 PM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

Guys, this thread is gonna get locked if all you're doing is flaming and trolling. There is a good amount of info in here to help out the 3rd gen community. Whatever beef you and kenpachi have, squash it.

Preludes were never meant to power, it was all about handling. If doing the internals make you're engine more durable, that's a serious goal. For being fast? Weaksauce, unless you put a helmet and roll cage in the Lude and track it. Then that is mad respect.

Did I mention street racing not tolerated here?
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Old 07-05-2012, 07:04 PM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

Not trying to cause a problem, just trying to get info on this build. Kenpachi, nothing against you or your civic but your competly off topic. You really kinda jacked my thread. I'm not asking what you guys think about the build, just looking for info from people with experiance on the subject.
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Old 07-05-2012, 07:36 PM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

Well, you really seem to know what you want. My apologies if I was being too forward, I just wanted you to be sure of the road you're traveling. Good luck!
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Old 07-05-2012, 07:45 PM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

I forgot to mention an important detail about using B21a1 pistons on a B20a5 engine. You should use the B21a1 head gasket since the piston size will be 83mm. I am using the Genuine Honda HG, which I feel is much better in quality than a Felpro or other brand.
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Old 07-05-2012, 10:47 PM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colinater View Post
Man this is exactly what i asked for, what im tryin to do is build a bottom end for a high comp na build.

Dont really have alot of hondas to pick out of in the junk yards in town besides the regular f22s and there is one f23. The junkyards out of town hough have a few bace model integras and 4g prelude si's, do you recomend me taking anything off of these cars?
You could use the powertrain and start a h23 build, or use the f22 powertrain and turbo. NA builds are nice as long as the sourced parts are reasonably priced. B20a5, NA is pricy for a build, you'll never see 200whp with the parts out there.
And should you, will not be streetable.

Turbo will be the final choice in the long run, just google turbo CB7, and you'll see. I respect your choice for NA, I like engines that scream, but our blocks weren't for that. It's work and loads of ecu tuning
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:17 AM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

All im trying to do is get the most power posiable out of a b20 using mostly stock honda parts, i know there are better build options but this is what i decided i want to do. I dont know why you guys dont understand that.

The fact that we have an odball motor and a somewhat rare car makes it hard to find aftermarket parts or really any parts at all. In that it makes it a real acomplishment to do anything to our cars. I try to be as unique as posiable when it comes to my car and an all motor b20 isnt done very offen.
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:28 AM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

You might want to consider these if you want to do an N/A build on a b20a5. I would grab them for my build if I had the cash, and maybe pair them up with a set of h23 rods...

RACE ENGINEERING - Pistons - B20A5 - 522P815R - Race Engineering, Inc - XT / XTP PISTONS
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:59 AM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

If anyone understands, it me man. Neuspeed wires, neuspeed n2 header, AEM cam gears, catco cat, sheepdog exhaust, Orijin upper arm bushings, these things were extinct in 2005, I found them and installed them.

I was only giving suggestions to what motors you posted. You can use a B21 exhaust cam, port the intake and TB on top of the b16 pistons and h23 rods. You can also blueprint the crank and get stronger lifters, springs and valves (sodium filled) so you can go to a higher rpm. Somewhere up in the 8500-9000 rpm there's more power, never got to find out.
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SURGEON GENERAL WARNING:
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:10 AM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

You will only need about 7,000 RPMs. A full-blown NA motor is 100% streetable. I drive mine to work everyday and it is still OBD0. So far in 2+ years it has not exploded or had sudden cadiac arrest. Just use premium fuel and it's fine.

Colinator, don't listen to sorry excuses of anyone here who speculate or repeat the same song they heard from someone else. Here I am, with a daily driven, reliable, fast NA build and it puts a smile on my face to drive it to work every morning. It's like waking up to a sexy model every day.
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Old 07-06-2012, 08:25 AM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

Quote:
Originally Posted by TripleLude View Post
...fast NA build and it puts a smile on my face to drive it to work every morning. It's like waking up to a sexy model every day.
Sir, I would like to see some dyno numbers, if you would be so kind!
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Old 07-06-2012, 05:20 PM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colinater View Post
Alright, I'm planning on building a monster out of a stock B20 becase I have herd that you can use stock rods;pistons;cranks exc from other motors to make much more power.

After a little research I have found that any b series piston (excluding b21 and b20b) will fit in our blocks, that all have 81mm bore. Also that the H23 has the same stroke but I have no idea on the compatablity with our motors.

I have seen on here where people have talked about builds like this but cant find the pages, anybody have any tips?
What real power are you execting from this build?? 150?

Because thats about all you will get.

What is your realistic power goal?

Throwing parts at this motor is not going to get you much power unless you have a real plan with real goals.
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Old 07-06-2012, 08:04 PM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

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Originally Posted by Kenpachi View Post
Sir, I would like to see some dyno numbers, if you would be so kind!
I'll get you some 1/4 or 1/8 mile times when they become available. But my local strip was shut down in favor of a Kroger that was never built. Now people go on the street and put others at risk.

1/4 mile times will probably tell you more about the car than dyno numbers. I can take a picture of the 1/4 slip next to a passing GA emissions slip too. Acceleration and speed cannot be measured by a dyno, and maximum horse power number alone cannot express power being made at every RPM.

You can have two cars equally as fast with the same weight/gearing but different HP ratings. Civic#1 with 250hp, and Civic#2 with 150hp. Run them down the 1/4 mile and they can have the same time because: Civic#1 make very little power from 0-6600 RPMs, and Civic#2 makes loads of power from 0-6600 RPMs, but pretty much flattens out.

You can't bench race with weight, gearing, and a max HP number. All this bench racing reminds me of the kids at Dairy Queen back in 2002.
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:20 AM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

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Originally Posted by TripleLude View Post
I'll get you some 1/4 or 1/8 mile times when they become available. But my local strip was shut down in favor of a Kroger that was never built. Now people go on the street and put others at risk.

1/4 mile times will probably tell you more about the car than dyno numbers. I can take a picture of the 1/4 slip next to a passing GA emissions slip too. Acceleration and speed cannot be measured by a dyno, and maximum horse power number alone cannot express power being made at every RPM.

You can have two cars equally as fast with the same weight/gearing but different HP ratings. Civic#1 with 250hp, and Civic#2 with 150hp. Run them down the 1/4 mile and they can have the same time because: Civic#1 make very little power from 0-6600 RPMs, and Civic#2 makes loads of power from 0-6600 RPMs, but pretty much flattens out.

You can't bench race with weight, gearing, and a max HP number. All this bench racing reminds me of the kids at Dairy Queen back in 2002.
Huh? Wow...I'm sure you can lay it down in the 1/4 faster than stink, don't care. Just wanted some dyno numbers: all that work on the engine should yield some good results, right? We're talking about building a B20, since you seem to have a good example, I'm just curious as to how much gains you've been able to make.
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:24 PM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

kenpachi.....
























stop it..... this is not the thread for this.... stop trying to steer the thread in the wrong direction.

Thank you
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:26 PM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1funryd View Post
What real power are you execting from this build?? 150?

Because thats about all you will get.

What is your realistic power goal?

Throwing parts at this motor is not going to get you much power unless you have a real plan with real goals.
I agree here. you have to have a plan with a purpose otherwise you will be disappointed. Several h22 builds made this very clear to me.

proceed. I'd like to see what and where the OP decides to go.
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:54 PM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

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Originally Posted by T.E.L. View Post
kenpachi.....
stop it..... this is not the thread for this.... stop trying to steer the thread in the wrong direction.

Thank you
Ace
I wasn't, we're talking about building a B20 engine. TripleLude has a good example and good experience with building a 'fast' one. I figured dyno numbers are kinda important when dealing with engine performance upgrades IMO.

Now...it's in the wrong direction. Sorry Ace.
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Old 07-07-2012, 08:47 PM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

For real dont care about the gains I will see on a dyno. I dont have one available to me at all so I'm going to test my gains at my local 1/8 mile track. Already have done a base run and best I could get is 11.06. That was from last year, I plan to go again next week to see how the new motor does.

I also plan to do some autocross so I really dont want to push to much power. I want to do a b20 build because I dont want a stupid amount of power.
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Old 07-07-2012, 09:08 PM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

Not doing this build to hae dynoed power, just want to have beter lap times than my stock motor.
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Old 07-07-2012, 11:11 PM
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Re: Frankenstein B20

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colinater View Post
Not doing this build to hae dynoed power, just want to have beter lap times than my stock motor.
Then you do not need to do anything. Your stock motor is all you need.

But if you must build, and you do not care about too much more power, then do what Triple and a few 3rd genners have done.

B20a5 bored to B21a1 bore
Carefully ported and polished Intake Manifold but you need to port match and tune for this.
Use B21a1 pistons and rings or you can use B16/18 high compression pistons modified to fit the Rods.
Good intake
The best header you can find - Port matched
Full 2.25" mandrel bent catback with a straight through cat
Balance your bottom end - pistons, Connecting Rods, Crank shaft, Crank pulley

Delete AC, Cruise Control. Powersteering is optional, but I prefer to keep it since deleting it will be more of a hassel.


This will probably net you about 150ish with a good tune maybe 160ish.

Just remember our blocks and bottom end has a poor rod to stroke ratio and is bad for high rpms, so do not pass redline or you will detonate the block.
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