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can you put an lsd tranny in an 89'?

 
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Old 09-15-2007, 03:41 PM
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Icon5 can you put an lsd tranny in an 89'?

hey i have my 89' prelude, i love her to death, im looking for mods i can do outside the box, andi was wondering if there was an lsd tranny that would fit with my b20a5. im just learning about hondas, i know alot but.. still not that much. plz help me out.
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Old 09-15-2007, 05:45 PM
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Well, i believe someone actually modified a d2a4 tranny(90-91 Si) and added a Integra Type R LSD.

The only way you dont have to go through all the hassle of throwing massive amounts of $$ to add an LSD is to source yourself a ultra rare tranny off the Si TCV, which is a 3rd gen Prelude model that has LSD & traction control.


...good luck finding one!!
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Old 09-15-2007, 05:55 PM
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those were only made in japan werent they though?.. well i guess that'd be why its rare.. haha.
i saw a brochure for a jap one with tcs.
gah, well i plan on making my b20 own the h22 so, im guess im gonna have to visit the other side of the world.
(nothing against h22s, i just would rather my lude a beast with custom parts than with a motor swap with an instant add of 50-60hp, and a butt load of bolt on mods)
thanks though.
oh and also i was wondering about cams, i cant find performance cam shafts for the b20a5, just the cnc adjustable ones(are those any good)?
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Old 09-15-2007, 05:58 PM
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^^Dude, you're my best friend!!...i would love to see a b20a wax a h22...dont just say it, DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!11
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Old 09-15-2007, 06:14 PM
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XD haha thats funny.
hell i dont just say i do.
im getting some money saved right now, im first going to just rebiuld the engine and tranny, right now the clutch is going, and its infamously burning oil like all 3rd gens haha, once i get that done im going to make a custom cai/exhuast system, headers and all. once she is done, im going to find the first 4th or 5th gen i see and own them in the face, then privilege them to a view of my tail lights.
only thing is here, cops are crushign any car with after market parts.. im kinda edgy on that.. i love my lude..
what gen lude do you drive?

so about the cams though, do you know anything?
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Old 09-15-2007, 06:29 PM
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I drive a 3rd gen man.


...to be realistic...

bolt ons wont allow you to smack 4th gens or 5th gens. Especially if it's h22.
Bolts ons, a lightened flywheel and clutch will give 4th gen Si's a run for their money. You will certainly smack a 4th gen S model.

Now, if you want to really "build" a b20a(5), bolt ons is a good place to start.
Rebuild the motor with oversized pistons, overbore the block, do some headwork, advance/retard the timing, get a real nice tune...throw the kitchen sink into your b20a5 and you'll have a sporting chance against the, "heavier" 4-5g's. But in all honesty, the h22 is a far superior motor, power wise. I have tremendous respect for the h22, they have the illest top end speed i have seen as far as Honda motors are concerned, next to the f22c(s2000). This is coming from a B series guy...i used to think the b18c(GSR) motor was a awesome motor. The h22, after i drove my friends Lude changed my mind.
This is why i am dropping my current b21a1 in favor of the h22...


good luck!
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Old 09-15-2007, 07:17 PM
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nah, i usnderstand that, those were just the initial steps to rebiulding my b20, i plan on getting it bored out and raising the compression ratio with larger pistons, maybe ill add turbo in the longrun, but then ill have to rebiuld it again for turbo. and considering bolt ons for 3rd gens are hard to come by most is gonna be custom made for peformance.. yea im throwing alot of money in this car.
im have respect for the h22 also, ive wanted a 97' prelude for a while, but i ended up liking the 3rd gen better, and as for top speed, hell yea! they frikkin fly, 150mph stock is pretty damn good. only thing i regret about 3rd gens, i dont get to hear the vtec kick in when im blowing through rpms :[
i drove my moms civic a while back and man.. its only a sohc and a ulev engine, but still the vtec sounds and run s amazing.

one day im hoping to own a 3rd and 5th gen, side by side, yea :]

got any pics of your 3rd gen?
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Old 09-15-2007, 07:24 PM
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build that 3rd gen hommie. be different.
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Old 09-15-2007, 07:40 PM
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thanks man.
thats my plan and my whole understanding of hondas,
to make yours different from the thousands outs there.
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Old 09-16-2007, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by 89'si4ws View Post
XD haha that funny.
hell i dont just say i do.
im getting some money saved right now, im first going to just rebiuld the engine and tranny, right now the clutch is going, and its infamously burning oil like all 3rd gens haha, once i get that done im going to make a custom cai/exhuast system, headers and all. once she is done, im going to find the first 4th or 5th gen i see and own them in the face, then privilege them to a view of my tail lights.
only thing is here, cops are crushign any car with after market parts.. im kinda edgy on that.. i love my lude..
what gen lude do you drive?

so about the cams though, do you know anything?
theres not any aftermarket cams made for our motors it's gonna have to be custom work i have a couple extra sets of cams so im going to be sending a set of them off to get a nice mid range tq regrind and then i throw some adj. cam gears on them then im gonna top it off with a new ECU and a honda S200 system but, good luck beating on a 5th gen with just i/h/e done, where i am right now with out my cams yet and some other goodies i plan on doing i can give the 4th gen H23s a good run but as far as a H22 they're still a good bit quicker than be but nothing like they were before when i first got mine!
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Old 09-16-2007, 01:36 PM
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4th gen LSD's work in 88-89 preludes, actually just about every 4 cylinder FWD LSD honda LSD works in our cars with proper shimming.

Good luck

The SiTCV transmission is automatic.
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Old 09-16-2007, 02:40 PM
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yea i was looking at the regrinds. cause thats all i could find. i think im gonna go with what your saying, regrind and new aem cam gears thats what i was looking at orginally.

ive heard some bad stories about 4th gen trannies though..
ugh.. id rather not drive then drive an auto..

i got another question, as for ecu's and hondata info..
well there are alot of engine management systems to buy but which one is worth the 1.5k they ask for them?.
and ecu's ive heard vemon is good but are thre anyothers?

im an old school carb muscle car guy so im new to the electronical part of any car.
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Old 09-16-2007, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89'si4ws View Post
yea i was looking at the regrinds. cause thats all i could find. i think im gonna go with what your saying, regrind and new aem cam gears thats what i was looking at orginally.

ive heard some bad stories about 4th gen trannies though..
ugh.. id rather not drive then drive an auto..

i got another question, as for ecu's and hondata info..
well there are alot of engine management systems to buy but which one is worth the 1.5k they ask for them?.
and ecu's ive heard vemon is good but are thre anyothers?

im an old school carb muscle car guy so im new to the electronical part of any car.
What's wrong with a 4th gen transaxle?

If you convert over to OBD1, you tuning options are pretty much endless. AND IN SOME CASES FREE! Depending on your own ability. I say, try CROME, it's the cheapest alternative and just as good as Hondata S200.

You'll need a different ECU to tune with, P06 would be my recommendation or OBD1 PR4
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Old 09-16-2007, 11:47 PM
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ive heard the gearing is crappy and the dont give much power. but thats just what i heard.
idk for sure.

see haha all that ididnt understand. whats an OBD1, P06 and PR4?
srry for being so newbie.. but yea, canthelp it.
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Old 09-17-2007, 02:03 PM
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If you don't even know what OBD1 is, I doubt you'll follow through with this... but... whatever. Why do you want a LSD anyway? Are you have traction problems? OBD= On Board Diagnostics.... basically, if an injectors is malfunctioning the car will be able to tell you what's wrong. OBD1 wasn't a 'standard', so each manufacturer had their own system of dealing with it, which sucks... but OBDII= standard from any car to any other car, so OBDII readers are available.
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Old 09-17-2007, 06:41 PM
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haha im not stupid, i just didnt know what it was. know i pretty much understand completely.
and so pretty much what your saying is with the stock ecu on my prelude i wont be able to much fine tuning on my lude.right?
and the OBDI is better than OBDII, am i getting it right?
or was the OBDI just not common and there for harder find a management system for? sorry i dont mean to soudn stupid i just am very new to ecu's.

and for the tranny. i guess i had the wrong idea about LSD trannies, i had thought they where just all around better to have, andyes i know it stands for limited slip diff. and i know how those work. i was just going to put one in so id have a better stronger tranny and have one able to handle more power.
and os ive got a question, would a LSD tranny slow up an underpowered car because its limited slip?
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Old 09-17-2007, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by 89'si4ws View Post
haha im not stupid, i just didnt know what it was. know i pretty much understand completely.
and so pretty much what your saying is with the stock ecu on my prelude i wont be able to much fine tuning on my lude.right?
No. I'm not saying that.

Quote:
and the OBDI is better than OBDII, am i getting it right?
I'm not saying that either. I'm just saying OBDII is universal, an OBDII Diagnostic reader will work in a chrylser or a honda or a ford or a toyota. OBDI does the same thing, but you have to use a specific reader, or count flashes of a certain light in the dash, etc.

Quote:
or was the OBDI just not common and there for harder find a management system for?
No, it is quite common on pre 1994 cars. I think around 1996 everything switched to OBDII.

Quote:
sorry i dont mean to soudn stupid i just am very new to ecu's.
Then start using a shift key and capitalize correctly. It makes you seem more intelligent. If you don't care, just continue to type in all lowercase. Also, OBD is NOT the same thing as an ECU. All cars have different ECUs. OBDII is just a 'standardized protocol' for allowing the ECU to communicate to the outside world. Think of it as 'language'. OBDI= all the languages in the world. Everybody is communicating, but each culture has it's own language. OBDII= everybody speaks English.

Read all of this please:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Board_Diagnostics

Quote:
and for the tranny. i guess i had the wrong idea about LSD trannies, i had thought they where just all around better to have, andyes i know it stands for limited slip diff. and i know how those work. i was just going to put one in so id have a better stronger tranny and have one able to handle more power.
It's not really any stronger, it just distributes the power evenly. On an open differential'd transmission, if you one wheel starts to slip, it sends more power to that wheel. This is why many FWD vehicles can only lay 'one strip' of rubber. One wheel starts to slip, and it sends more power to one that's already slipping. Limited slip does just that, it limits the amount of slip a wheel can slip, then sends power to the OTHER wheel, the one that's getting traction.

Quote:
and os ive got a question, would a LSD tranny slow up an underpowered car because its limited slip?
No. Read all this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_slip_differential

Basically, unless you have traction problems, there are no benfits to getting an LSD in your car.
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Old 09-17-2007, 11:55 PM
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Actually, an LSD will rob you from power, plain and simple.... you're powering more then just one wheel now, as opposed to an OPEN diff.

The stock 3GP transaxle is very strong, actually most, if not all FWD honda transaxles are very strong.

The weakest point in our drivetrain are the CV joints and then mid shafts.

3GP's have traction issues, on a healthy running engine.
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Old 09-18-2007, 12:16 AM
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Cash68, I'd would like to like to say, thank you very much. Yes I do get lazy with my capitol letters sorry. Thank you very much for all the info. It was very helpful. Now that I have somewhat of an understanding of what ODBI and OBDII I feel better haha.

I have noticed the 3GP's traction issues though not too much as my clutch seems to be slipping. And not getting all the power to the wheels. I think i shall stick with my tranny and just rebiuld it with a new lightened clutch and flywheel. I guess I should replace my axles and all that while im rebiulding the tranny then. Thanks yall you've been alot of help.
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Old 09-18-2007, 12:33 AM
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Like the others have said, comparing the benefit to the hassel of locating and installing a LSD it just does not seem worth it. I have an LSD in my 4th Gen (sig) and compared to my old 3rd Gen I really do not feel that much of a difference. Even when powering through corners.

Put your time, money and effort into something more noticible ;)
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Old 09-18-2007, 12:47 AM
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I think i shall stick with my tranny and just rebiuld it with a new lightened clutch and flywheel. I guess I should replace my axles and all that while im rebiulding the tranny then. Thanks yall you've been alot of help.
Get a stock clutch. If you get a super performance one it'll be a bear to drive for any extended period of time. Also, a lightened flywheel will mean you'll have a lot less rotating mass, which is both good and bad. It will be quicker to rev, but ti will also be quicker to decelerate, meaning you'll probably have to downshift more often, and sooner than normal. Also, don't bother replacing your axles unless you need it... it's kinda pointless. If you really really really want to start modding your car, go in reverse order.

What is the #1 limiting factor in acceleration, braking and handling? TRACTION. Get tires. Get the best tires you can find! If possible, get an extra set of wheels so you can run winter tires in the winter for maximum traction, and super sticky summer tires in the summer. Tirerack was having a $50 rebate on Dunlop Direzzas a few months ago... I got them for my GSR rims for about $195 after the rebate... they're AA traction rated, and unbelievably sticky. I can literally turn the wheel as hard as I want at about 30mph and the accord just turns instantly, without squealing. After you've done tires, then get a performance exhaust... and no, loud does not equal fast. Factory silencers are beneficial to performance, as they aid in the evacuation of exhaust gases from the cylinder, due to the area of 'low pressure (bigger cross section in silencer area= lower pressure given the same flow). This helps reduce noise, and improve performance. Also, honda's are never known for torque, so unless you're boosted, a straight through muffler will just be really really loud, while killing your low end torque.

Anyway... get tires... change all the fluids... get everything CLEAN. Repair any rust. Maybe change the stereo as mine was unbelievably awful... and then start worrying about 'upgrades'. The car is pretty fast, handles well, and brakes well if everything is in good condition.
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Old 09-18-2007, 01:19 AM
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The best exhaust is no exhaust. you don't need any form of pressure in your exhaust setup but you must need to increase evacuation velocity to improve flow and gain hp/tq. I've tried every form of an exhaust on a 3GP and I can say that a straight through muffler was/has been the the only one that I even noticed a gain in HP.

If you're going to mod your engine, don't start with an exhaust. I recommend getting a tubular exhaust manifold, chikara torque step. (DC's aren't available anymore).

Then go with a drop in K&N filter, our stock intake assembly have been known to handle up to 200bhp with ease on modified engines. If you feel the need to have tubular intake plumbing, get a 3" inner diameter x 3' length pipe bent to fit. I recommend relocating the battery for this.

Once this is done, the exhaust can come into play, you'll gain about 3-8whp on an exhaust, depending on which route you go. If you want a quiet exhaust, get 2 1/4" ID (inner diameter) plumbing, resonator and a baffled muffler. If noise isn't an issue, up to 2 1/2" ID plumbing, resonator and straight through oval muffler (Vibrant).... if you don't care about the earth and noise, add a test pipe, no resonator and straight through round muffler N1 style... this will net the most HP on our cars but given out engine design, cause it to be extremely loud.


You don't need to mod the stock exhaust in my eyes with this setup, unless you get into internal modifications and or head port work. Boring out the stock TB to 60mm is a huge plus, still very small but, the largest size you can bore out the stock TB.
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Old 09-18-2007, 01:23 AM
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Thanks man your really kool for helping me with all of this. The tires on my car(as i was told) are already really good tires. I'll get the specs on them tomorrow. They are just, at the moment under inflated. Though at around 30 they start to squeal. Next time you find some that cheap, tell me I will buy them off you. I have been looking at exhausts and no i don't want a fart can... I dislike the way they sound and how everyone boast about how loud they can make there exhaust. I was looking into the silencers, only cause I wanted my prelude quiet, but if it boosts performance I'll be even more willing to put it on.

My lude just got a good cleaning by me, but I am going to take her to get the undercarriage washed, it's racked with grease and oil from the last owner.. and my oil leak..
Besides the leak I have a small clicking in my engine and I just replaced the oil some I'm getting that checked out. Everything is clean,and for having 158k miles, it huals and stops on a dime. But yes, I am going to do all the small things first, I am just getting ideas and knowledge on parts and things I do not know for the future when I plan on doing further mods. Best part :] mines rust free I've checked all around :]
The stereo in mine was already fitted with an after market Alpine deck and the rear speakers were replaced, the fronts I am going to replace soon.
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89' prelude 2.0 si 4ws
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bone stock.
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Old 09-18-2007, 01:35 AM
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God that reminds me, the air filter on it at the moment is the stock air filter from who knows how long ago. Its about black and was originally white.. stupid previous owner. Only problem is I need to special order a K&N filter, as they do not carry them anywhere in this city(not for my lude anyway.)

Once I get my engine and tranny in tip top shape, I am going to feed a CAI where my battery is and down infront of the wheel well. Along with the exhuast(which since Im getting mixed answers Ill experiment with it myself) those are my first steps..and everyone elses haha..
Where can i get the Chikara torque step header? I was dissapointed to see that DC doesnt carry one for our amazing ludes.

Later on im planning on boring out the TB and gettign over sized pistons, regrind my cam shafts, get aem cam gears, and get it port and polished.
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Old 09-18-2007, 02:17 AM
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The best exhaust is no exhaust. you don't need any form of pressure in your exhaust setup but you must need to increase evacuation velocity to improve flow and gain hp/tq. I've tried every form of an exhaust on a 3GP and I can say that a straight through muffler was/has been the the only one that I even noticed a gain in HP.
Have any dynos to back this up? Everywhere I've ever read, and everyone has always said that hondas need a bit of backpressure to keep a broader powerband. Sure, a straight through might make a bit more power, but at the loss of low-mid RPM torque, and the powerband will be even smaller.
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Cash68 View Post
Have any dynos to back this up? Everywhere I've ever read, and everyone has always said that hondas need a bit of backpressure to keep a broader powerband. Sure, a straight through might make a bit more power, but at the loss of low-mid RPM torque, and the powerband will be even smaller.
Back pressure is a terrible thing, this is what robs you of power. Thus the need to upgrade an exhaust. TO REMOVE THE BACK PRESSUE.

http://preludepower.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266540

Please read the entire thing, then we'll discuss more.

You need to read a lot more. Honda's have the same 4 stroke engine setup that all other 4 stroke engines do. Honda's don't need any back pressure like all other engines don't. We must however think about exhaust gas velocity and having a 3" exhaust on our B20/21 engine doesn't make sense. Remember, 130bhp is 130hp that your exhaust pushes out. Built engines, like K20A's, H22A's and some high end B series will require the use of a 3" ID exhaust or larger in some cases to help promote exhaust gas velocity.

Stock engines can manage to be okay with 2 1/4-2 1/2" exhaust systems. Removing back pressure, causes the positive flow to move faster, thus resulting in more power through out the entire power range.


Think about it this way.... Go outside, turn your water hose on, install a 1/8" sweeper on there, you'll have a nice powerful blast from it, however if you go to a 3/8" sweeper... you'll gain a lot more power from the stream and allow more water to escape from the hose. Now completely remove the nozzle and watch as all the water just pours out with out no physical speed..... bad example as gases tend to travel a bit different then liquids, though the concept is still the same.
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Old 09-19-2007, 11:47 AM
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Okay.... but technicallyi the largest pipe with the least restrictions= the least amount of back pressure, but that WOULD kill low end torque, as the exhaust would have a very low velocity and have trouble leaving the cylinder. It might be okay at high RPMs, but low and mid rpm power would suffer. It's well written but I'm not sure how what it's saying is really any different.
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Old 09-19-2007, 06:17 PM
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where can i find chikara headers?
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Old 09-19-2007, 11:50 PM
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Ebay? Dunno. I hate headers. Leaky things...
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Old 09-20-2007, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cash68 View Post
Okay.... but technicallyi the largest pipe with the least restrictions= the least amount of back pressure, but that WOULD kill low end torque, as the exhaust would have a very low velocity and have trouble leaving the cylinder. It might be okay at high RPMs, but low and mid rpm power would suffer. It's well written but I'm not sure how what it's saying is really any different.
LOL, no back pressure... BACK... means BACK, we want foward/positive moving flow.

With a properly sized exhaust, you just gain HP and tq through out the RPM range, after that.... you just gain mid/high end HP and lose low end, which 3GP's and most honda's don't have to being with.

My friends, friend..... has a built civic. He dropped the 2 1/2" exhaust setup and went 3".... it feels less torquey but he gain 4mph in the 1/4..... yay.
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